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Banish All Their Fears: Bayonet & Musket Battles, Volume 1» Forums » General

Subject: Blenheim rss

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Mark Sterner
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You know, it's my understanding that "Blenheim" was the English bastardization of the name of the town of Blindheim. Not the English translation -- as if any were necessary -- but actually the phonetic of the English saying the name of the town while in the vicinity. The common English soldiers pronunciation.

I'd think the title is certainly appropriate given the famous victory of Marlborough. But on the map the name should be Blindheim as it was named then and as it remains named to this day.
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David Fox
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Six months ! Sorry, missed this question when first posted.

Blenheim vs. Blindheim, Neerwinden vs. Landen, Steenkirk vs. multiple ways of also spelling Steenkirk. Given the differences in spelling between a variety of German, French, Dutch, and English language sources, we've decided to go with the English source spellings as the ones that will be familiar to most players.
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Mark Sterner
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Sorry to hear that David. Should always be the nation that the locale is situated in that controls. In my opinion. Who cares what some English blokes tried to wrap their mouths around. Kind of Anglocentric if you ask me.

But it won't affect my purchase of the game.
 
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Bill Kirkup
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Wow, that’s a tough principle to adopt, and one that ignores the kaleidoscope of nations that have made up Europe for the past millennium or so. Do you call it Lemburg, Lwow, Lvov or Lviv? They are all the same place, over the last hundred years. A heck of a lot of game maps include, say, Belgrade, Brussels, Bucharest, Coblenz, Cologne, Copenhagen, Corinth, Dunkirk, Moscow, Munich, Nuremburg, Rome, Syracuse, Vienna, Warsaw. Every single one of those is going to have to go, and others, because they are all the English versions of names that differ in the language most spoken there.

Also, and purely in response to your challenging line about ‘some English blokes’, I look forward to the map for the next game about the Native American Wars. US soldiers were fluent in Lakota then, or did the Anglocentric names prevail there too?
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Mark Sterner
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BillBootstrap wrote:
Wow, that’s a tough principle to adopt, and one that ignores the kaleidoscope of nations that have made up Europe for the past millennium or so. Do you call it Lemburg, Lwow, Lvov or Lviv? They are all the same place, over the last hundred years. A heck of a lot of game maps include, say, Belgrade, Brussels, Bucharest, Coblenz, Cologne, Copenhagen, Corinth, Dunkirk, Moscow, Munich, Nuremburg, Rome, Syracuse, Vienna, Warsaw. Every single one of those is going to have to go, and others, because they are all the English versions of names that differ in the language most spoken there.

Also, and purely in response to your challenging line about ‘some English blokes’, I look forward to the map for the next game about the Native American Wars. US soldiers were fluent in Lakota then, or did the Anglocentric names prevail there too?

In your examples, for Lemburg I would use that for WWI. Lvov for WWII I believe. The point that you're missing, however, is THIS:

Blindheim was NEVER called "Blenheim" by any nationality. NEVER. Why give it a name just because some foreigners won a battle there and called it the wrong thing?

(As I've said I've nothing against using "Blenheim" as the battle name on the box; but as the actual little village on the map? No sir.)
 
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Bill Kirkup
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No, I don't think I've missed the point. There are a great many places in Europe that are known by different names in different languages. This is not restricted to English names for places - the French name for London is Londres, just as an example. It's a product of a multilingual continent with a pretty rich history.

The reason that the English names predominate worldwide is because of the dominance of the language, which is almost entirely due to its adoption by the US. Blenheim is no neologism coined by a squaddie like Wipers: no squaddie would come up with a formulation like '-heim'. It was, as all the other examples I gave above, the English language version. If you think that is wrong, then logically you should find Vienna, and Munich, and Moscow equally unacceptable - so let's have Wien, München and Moskva instead. Why pick on this one?
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Mark Sterner
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I'm sorry, but you're just one of those people who'll never admit they're wrong. I have no time for you, good day sir.
 
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Paul Borchers
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Next we'll say we can't play the games correctly unless we pronounce all the place names as the people who lived there did. Good luck qualifying for Borodino or any village in Finland.
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Paul Borchers
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Quote:
I'm sorry, but you're just one of those people who'll never admit they're wrong. I have no time for you, good day sir.


Rather ironic, given posts elsewhere.
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Bill Kirkup
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Marconi wrote:
I'm sorry, but you're just one of those people who'll never admit they're wrong. I have no time for you, good day sir.


A rather sweeping generalisation, based on my standing my ground - politely - in response to two posts. Still, if that is the way it is, a very good day to you too.
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Here the truceless armies yet / Trample, rolled in blood and sweat; / They kill and kill and never die; / And I think that each is I. // None will part us, none undo / The knot that makes one flesh of two, /
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And there's always Brunswick, the corruption of the city name Braunschweig.
 
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Mark Sterner
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David Ells wrote:
And there's always Brunswick, the corruption of the city name Braunschweig.

Not the same. For one, as I keep mentioning, the actual town of Blindheim has never had a different spelling.

Secondly, the town of Braunschweig/Brunswick apparently was named, essentially, Brunswick or something very similar originally. Later, the Germans called it Braunschweig.

Quote:
The date and circumstances of the town's foundation are unknown. Tradition maintains that Braunschweig was created through the merger of two settlements, one founded by Brun(o), a Saxon count who died in 880, on one side of the River Oker – the legend gives the year 861 for the foundation – and the other the settlement of a legendary Count Dankward, after whom Dankwarderode Castle ("Dankward's clearing"), which was reconstructed in the 19th century, is named.[7][8] The town's original name of Brunswik is a combination of the name Bruno and Low German wik (related to the Latin vicus), a place where merchants rested and stored their goods. The town's name therefore indicates an ideal resting-place, as it lay by a ford across the Oker River. Another explanation of the city's name is that it comes from Brand, or burning, indicating a place which developed after the landscape was cleared through burning.[9] The city was first mentioned in documents from the St. Magni Church from 1031, which give the city's name as Brunesguik.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braunschweig
 
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Bill Kirkup
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Marconi wrote:

Not the same. For one, as I keep mentioning, the actual town of Blindheim has never had a different spelling.


But it obviously has: Blenheim. Blindheim the place only became known outside its immediate locality when the battle occurred, but ever since then it has had an English-language version, like scores of other European place-names. Most of these English-language versions are much more familiar than other versions because of the common use of the language, hence the use of Munich, Moscow, Vienna and all the rest on your game maps.

What seems to be missing here is an appreciation of the complexity of the history and political geography of Europe and how rapidly it has changed. There is hardly a place of any significance that does not have more than one name, and many have several. All that happened to Blindheim was that it became significant after the battle and another name became commonly used, just like a great many other places in Europe. There is nothing different about it to any of the others.
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Mark Sterner
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We disagree. I understand perfectly what you're saying and all the examples in Europe that may appear to parallel this situation. They are all apples to an orange. I suggest you rethink what you're trying to explain.
 
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Bill Kirkup
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I’m sure we do disagree, yes. Why that means it is me who has to rethink what I’m trying to explain rather than you, I‘m less sure. But ok, if that is what I should do, here goes.

You think that the reason there were apparently no previous references to Blenheim is that the name didn’t exist before the battle, and therefore this is an orange not an apple. I think the reason is that outside the locality nobody had much reason to refer to it, and the existence of an English-language version of the name followed exactly the same process as all the other examples (and more). It might be a slightly more recent apple, but it’s still an apple.

To be frank, it was something you said earlier that first drew my attention, and that is central to my disagreement. “Who cares what some English blokes tried to wrap their mouths around. Kind of Anglocentric if you ask me.”

As I’m sure you know, the battle, and the place, were named Blenheim in every English-language written account from the outset, not least by Marlborough, who even named his house after it. Is it remotely plausible that after the battle Marlborough turned to “some English blokes”, asked them what the place was called and, on hearing something resembling “Blintum” (which would be a typical garbled version of the name) then came up with “Blenheim”? A fully anglicised version would in any case have been Blindham, as ‘ham’ is the English version of ‘heim’. Is it remotely plausible that Marlborough himself could not “wrap his mouth around” Blindheim? The Marlborough who was educated at good schools in Dublin and London and the University of Oxford? That was fluent in French and German? I think not.

That is why I will continue to disagree, but I am of course happy to respect your different point of view – perhaps without the sideswipe at “some English blokes” though.
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