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Twilight Imperium (Fourth Edition)» Forums » General

Subject: War Suns/Dreadnoughts rss

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Martin Hendry
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I believe that the common consensus among the community is that Dreadnought IIs are the most efficient non-fighter ship because of their movement, bombardment ability, capacity, cost to survivability ratio and position in the tech tree. Why then did they get the "Immune to Direct Hits" ability instead of War Suns? I understand that War Suns should be using their fighter screen to take hits, but why on earth is Duranium Armour on the way to War Suns if you're so heavily incentivised not to use their Sustain Damage ability?

Personally I think that War Suns should gain the "Immune to Direct Hits" ability whilst all Dreadnought IIs (other than the L1Z1X Super-Dreadnought IIs because they should really feel super) should lose it as I believe that a War Sun is currently a white elephant that is too expensive to actually use effectively: they should be able to reliably sustain damage without risking a full turn's economy every time you do it. What do you guys think?
 
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james herbby
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Because Warsuns are supposed to be the glass canons that can eliminate all life on a planet and throwing out hails of shots while dreads are the work horses of the fleet.

Also encourages fleet support for your big bad death star knock offs.

Yes, dreads are the most cost efficient ship, but there is a reason warsuns cost 12. It is that in fleet actions if the 2 players have equal number of ships the warsun fleet will most likely win because of sheer damage.

I have no problem with dreads or suns as they are. Each has a place. Dread 2 is the Tank while suns are the DD.
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Poland
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War Sun has capacity 6. If you're not filling it with fighters to protect it, you're doing something wrong.
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Also, there is that little precendent called „Death star 1“.

Also, „Death Star 2“.

Also, <sighs deeply> „Starkiller Base“ <weeps silently>

Historic record clearly shows a vulnerability of offensive superstructures to well placed direct hits. cool
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Miguel Batista
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GrumblingGamer wrote:
Also, there is that little precendent called „Death star 1“.

Also, „Death Star 2“.

Also, <sighs deeply> „Starkiller Base“ <weeps silently>

Historic record clearly shows a vulnerability of offensive superstructures to well placed direct hits. cool


Well, there was also the executor and that big ship on the new movie whose name I can't remember or bother to look up.
 
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mAIOR wrote:

Well, there was also the executor and that big ship on the new movie whose name I can't remember or bother to look up.


The Executor was before the crash subject to massive fire from the Rebel fleet (which actually focussed fire on the Super Star Destroyer); the downed shields allowed the A-Wing to slip through and damage the bridge. So I‘d say that was sustained damage.

That Battleship in TLJ was hit superficially by an X-Wing and then subject to heavy bombing; could count as direct hot, though.

Nevertheless, the fact remains that capital ships have been shown to die from something else than critical hits most of the time; whereas 100% of superstructures have been destroyed by unshielded exhaust ports and other such „mistakes“.

You‘d think there was some sort of insurance scam going on here.
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Joshua Schutte
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It's a known fact no one can design a ball of death without a huge weakness/ pathway to the core. It all happened a long time ago in a galaxy far far away
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Martin Hendry
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Nyarlathotep90 wrote:
War Sun has capacity 6. If you're not filling it with fighters to protect it, you're doing something wrong.


You might notice I did mention fighter screens in the OP.

Also, way too many Star Wars references: I had hoped we would talk about our totally cool War Suns, not those lame Death Stars :-P
 
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Alwin Derijck
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Warsuns are a very deadly unit. The fact they have a vulnerability dreadnought 2 don't keeps things tense and interesting.
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Christoph Yasutake
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You know...

the thing that always struck me in all star wars movies is how quickly both the rebs and the empire could quickly build super structures. I mean, in TLJ they roll into a massive 'unused' rebel base. How long did it take the rebs to build that massive door? also, what kind of budget did they have to throw around cash on such mothballed facilities?

maybe there _is_ some kind of insurance/construction scam going on.
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Steve Williams
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sho_vaunt wrote:
I mean, in TLJ they roll into a massive 'unused' rebel base. How long did it take the rebs to build that massive door?


They didn't; it was a repurposed mining facility. And it had a bunch of fortifications since it was on a backwater planet that would have to defend itself from piracy and the like.

The real answer to the warsun losing sustain damage is a victim of the simplified tech tree. All the techs that previously affected multiple unit types got rolled into unit upgrades.
 
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Dan Heck
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https://boardgamegeek.com/image/3952917/dheck?size=large

In terms of value for your money, Dreadnoughts fair poorly across the board. The Sustain Damage upgrade helps them out some, basically negating a card that arguably makes them worth less than 2 hits in a lot of circumstances. (The threat of the card alone changes how and when you'll want to sustain damage with them.)

Dreadnoughts are situationally good when they let you get the most value out of the next unit of fleet supply or production, and you have extra resources to burn. But for the price, across a range of assumptions, destroyers are probably a better way to absorb hits (especially non-fighter hits) in a lot of situations. And while they're absorbing hits better, those destroyers are also hard countering fighters.

A full war sun, on the other hand, can give you the most destructive value for the cost of anything in the game, outside of fighters. (And those fighters hit fleet supply/capacity limits) while also giving you lots of hit absorption through a fighter screen. The vulnerability seems fair. Also, very nicely thematic ... and a way better integration of that death star vulnerability idea than the older, silly rule about a fighter taking it down. (I'm glad the silliness was in the game, but it was more of a good joke than a rule.)
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Steve Williams
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dheck wrote:
And while they're absorbing hits better, those destroyers are also hard countering fighters.


"Hard Counter" is a bit of a stretch; I barely need two hands and some toes to count the number of fighters I've seen Destroyer I's barrage out this edition (14 games in), and don't need any hands for Destroyer II, as I've yet to see anyone research them.

That said, it's a change I like. In TI3 Cruisers and Destroyers were total no-brainers over Dreadnoughts, but in TI4 there is some tension in the choices.
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Dan Heck
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Yeah, I should’ve clarified that Destroyer 2 is a hard counter.

And by that, I mean that they can trade at about 1.5:1 in terms of goods value. (Goods = Resources + Influence.)

Fighters counter dreadnoughts by about the same ratio. They cost around 3 goods (less if your production is efficient) while the dreadnought costs around 4.5 goods ... so 1.5:1, but there's less hit mitigation for your fleet overall. 3 advanced fighters will beat a Dreadnought (1 or 2) about 75% of the time, and tie another 5% of the time ... and the upgrade for Dreads is really just mitigating a disadvantage that isn't showing up in the stats.

If you're beating someone while spending 2/3rds of the resources, that's a serious edge, especially when you consider that the statistical dynamics of fights change dramatically with just a single fighter. A tied fight (50/50 odds) generally becomes a 60/40 or better with the addition of 1 fighter, and a 70/30 with the addition of 2. Small margins are frequently decisive.
 
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