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The War: Europe 1939-1945» Forums » Rules

Subject: Lend-lease and Murmansk run questions rss

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Robin Lapinou
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1/ SW happens in Spring/Fall only, but U-boat/ASW can be used on -board (well in off-map boxes only if I understand) each turn ?

2/ Can the Allies decide to use on-board ASW as fleet if lend-lease is intercepted, but not by any U-boat?

3/Which of the following sequences is correct ?
A. SW segment: Axis places U-boat and keeps 2 aside.
B. Allies places ASW. Since Axis kept 2 aside, they also keep 2 ASW aside
C. in SM segment, Britain sends lend-Lease to USSR. (they have to anyways otherwise these NARF are lost to them). They decide to go via Murmansk (for whatever reason but mostly because there are no German TAC in Narvik, otherwise it would be too risky).
D.Since they know there might be U-boats around, they send their 2 left aside ASW to escort. Those are just assumed to be together with the moving fleet wherever it is intercepted.
E. Germans decide to intercept in the Narvik box, with one fleet based in Trondheim (assuming its interception roll is a success) and 2 U-boats.
Interception by U-boats is automatic and U-Boats are just placed together with intercepting fleet before battle ?

OR:
A. Axis places its 2 U-boat in the Narvik box, indicating where interception will occur.
B. Allies places 2 ASW in the same sea zone.
C. There will be no fight between ASW and U-Boat, unless lend-lease stratmove is actually intercepted in that sea area ?
D. Intercepting U-Boat are treated like Fleet on patrol in that area (automatic interception for them and -2 for other fleets)

4/ Naval battle aftermath:
After 3 rounds of naval combat (maximum):
A. If the Fleet carrying the NARFs is depleted, it must go back home for repair and the NARF transfert is cancelled. (and 1/2 of the NARFs are sunk)
B. Can the Allies take the NARF back onto their account ? or are they lost until actually sent ot the Soviets?
C. If there was 1 carrying fleet AND one escorting fleet AND the 2 ASW, and if after battle only the escorting fleet is depleted, my understanding of 7.10 §3 is that the whole moving force has to abort and go back home without delivering to the Soviets. Correct?
What about that rule if only the ASWs have been depleted ? I think in that case the moving forces do not have to abort.
D. What happens to the moving fleets? must they remain in Murmansk and start their next turn from there ?


5/ Is Murmansk port frozen during winter, preventing winter Lend-lease ?


Design questions, just out of curiosity:
6/ Why not just allowing raiders/U-boats to destroy NARF taken from Soviets, depending on the amount of Lend-lease ?

7/ How about transfers from the US through East Siberia? I am not sure but I believe something like 60% of the US=>USSR tranfers came via the Far east route.
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Ernie Copley
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Agabdir wrote:
1/ SW happens in Spring/Fall only, but U-boat/ASW can be used on -board (well in off-map boxes only if I understand) each turn ?

2/ Can the Allies decide to use on-board ASW as fleet if lend-lease is intercepted, but not by any U-boat?

3/Which of the following sequences is correct ?
A. SW segment: Axis places U-boat and keeps 2 aside.
B. Allies places ASW. Since Axis kept 2 aside, they also keep 2 ASW aside
C. in SM segment, Britain sends lend-Lease to USSR. (they have to anyways otherwise these NARF are lost to them). They decide to go via Murmansk (for whatever reason but mostly because there are no German TAC in Narvik, otherwise it would be too risky).
D.Since they know there might be U-boats around, they send their 2 left aside ASW to escort. Those are just assumed to be together with the moving fleet wherever it is intercepted.
E. Germans decide to intercept in the Narvik box, with one fleet based in Trondheim (assuming its interception roll is a success) and 2 U-boats.
Interception by U-boats is automatic and U-Boats are just placed together with intercepting fleet before battle ?

OR:
A. Axis places its 2 U-boat in the Narvik box, indicating where interception will occur.
B. Allies places 2 ASW in the same sea zone.
C. There will be no fight between ASW and U-Boat, unless lend-lease stratmove is actually intercepted in that sea area ?
D. Intercepting U-Boat are treated like Fleet on patrol in that area (automatic interception for them and -2 for other fleets)

4/ Naval battle aftermath:
After 3 rounds of naval combat (maximum):
A. If the Fleet carrying the NARFs is depleted, it must go back home for repair and the NARF transfert is cancelled. (and 1/2 of the NARFs are sunk)
B. Can the Allies take the NARF back onto their account ? or are they lost until actually sent ot the Soviets?
C. If there was 1 carrying fleet AND one escorting fleet AND the 2 ASW, and if after battle only the escorting fleet is depleted, my understanding of 7.10 §3 is that the whole moving force has to abort and go back home without delivering to the Soviets. Correct?
What about that rule if only the ASWs have been depleted ? I think in that case the moving forces do not have to abort.
D. What happens to the moving fleets? must they remain in Murmansk and start their next turn from there ?


5/ Is Murmansk port frozen during winter, preventing winter Lend-lease ?


Design questions, just out of curiosity:
6/ Why not just allowing raiders/U-boats to destroy NARF taken from Soviets, depending on the amount of Lend-lease ?

7/ How about transfers from the US through East Siberia? I am not sure but I believe something like 60% of the US=>USSR tranfers came via the Far east route.


Hello, Robin - in order:

1) yes - summer/fall use of on-board U-Boat/ASW is ok;
2) yes;
3) it's mostly your first sequence, but I don't know why you'd base U-Boats in the Murmansk Box and then try to intercept in the Narvik Sea Area; interception by on-board U-Boats is not automatic, nor is counter-interception by on-board ASW;
4) A. okay, that's correct;
B. they can be taken back into the Allied NARF count; no penalties would apply re: failure to help the USSR since a good-faith effort was made to send the NARFs;
C. I have never seen this happen in an actual game - after three rounds of naval and/or naval/air combat, one side or the other is the winner. If it's the Allies the convoy proceeds; if it's the Axis, it doesn't. It's hard to imagine the Allies lost (or gave up) after sustaining only one Depletion. Whether the losses are sustained by the ASW or the Fleets, it's a moot point - the Allies won the naval battle or they didn't. If they won, survivors drop off the NARFs at Murmansk, they're added to the Soviet NARF level, and the Allied force returns to Scapa; if, say the escorts got massacred after one round, presumably the Allied Fleet carrying NARFs would give up and go back to Scapa if it was probable that the Fleet would se sunk on Round Two.
5) No;
6) well, I could, I suppose - it would simplify things if there was just one die roll based on the number of German TAC/Fleets/on-board U-Bots in the Murmansk Box. I haven't worked out that formula, but it's not bad idea for an optional simplification rule;
7) Good point - I incorporated that idea into the Lend-Lease via Alaska/Vladivostok rule in the TW Expansion Kit.

Fyi, use of on-board SW units is rare - until 1943, both sides almost always want all their U-Boats/ASW in the U-Boat War Box. And by 1943 and thereafter, the Allies usually have plenty of Fleets.

Also, if there are too many German air/naval units guarding the Murmansk route, the Allies will usually send Lend-Lease via Persia instead. They'll use Murmansk only that's insufficient and if the Soviets are in urgent need (which can happen) and it's worth the risks.

Fyi, I like to use my British carriers to sink the Kriegsmarine in port if I can - the Germans are often careless about placing their Fleets.

Hope this helps,

ernie
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Robin Lapinou
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Hi Ernie,

Thank you for answering so quickly!


e_copley wrote:

3) it's mostly your first sequence, but I don't know why you'd base U-Boats in the Murmansk Box and then try to intercept in the Narvik Sea Area; interception by on-board U-Boats is not automatic, nor is counter-interception by on-board ASW;


Well that was my question: where do I put the SUBs I mean to use to intercept lend-lease? in the Murmansk box necessary?
I would say the most rational place would be the Narvik box, since the convoy must go through it, so interception roll would be the easiest, and I could bring German TAC to help in combat and interception roll.

If interception is not automatic, where is the port of origin for the U-Boats? do you count the 2 ASW as part of the moving force? or do they have to roll to counter-intercept? from which port ? Scapa Flow?

e_copley wrote:

C. I have never seen this happen in an actual game - after three rounds of naval and/or naval/air combat, one side or the other is the winner. If it's the Allies the convoy proceeds; if it's the Axis, it doesn't. It's hard to imagine the Allies lost (or gave up) after sustaining only one Depletion. Whether the losses are sustained by the ASW or the Fleets, it's a moot point - the Allies won the naval battle or they didn't. If they won, survivors drop off the NARFs at Murmansk, they're added to the Soviet NARF level, and the Allied force returns to Scapa; if, say the escorts got massacred after one round, presumably the Allied Fleet carrying NARFs would give up and go back to Scapa if it was probable that the Fleet would se sunk on Round Two.


I guess that's where it is not clear to me (and I've read the same question in other places from other players): what is "loosing" or "winning" a naval battle? Not only for the Murmansk run but in general.
If only one side remains alive I guess I can figure who won, but there are 3 rounds, so let's say it is a tight one (for example 2 English fleet + 1 CV/NAC and 2 ASW vs 1 German TAC + 2 U-Boats, fairly balanced) and after 3 rounds there are 2 depletions on one side and 1 on the other side. Nobody broke off. What happens ?

In the rule 7.10 I think it says that if one fleet of the force is depleted, the whole force must sail back home:
"The only way to get Depleted Fleets safely home to a shipyard is for the owning player to break off the action with all the units involved in the air/naval or naval battle."
But that applies only at the end of the combat, so after the 3rd round, on when one player breaks off.
So to me that would mean that in my example both players have lost. So the German U-Boats would have to sail back wherever, and the Brits back home.

Or do you consider that the side with 1 depletion won 2-1 ?
Or do you count the number of remaining fleets ?
Or do you consider that the phasing player has won if he still has surviving units at the end of the 3rd round, and can therefore go on ?

e_copley wrote:

Fyi, use of on-board SW units is rare - until 1943, both sides almost always want all their U-Boats/ASW in the U-Boat War Box. And by 1943 and thereafter, the Allies usually have plenty of Fleets.
Also, if there are too many German air/naval units guarding the Murmansk route, the Allies will usually send Lend-Lease via Persia instead. They'll use Murmansk only that's insufficient and if the Soviets are in urgent need (which can happen) and it's worth the risks.

Fyi, I like to use my British carriers to sink the Kriegsmarine in port if I can - the Germans are often careless about placing their Fleets.



Sure, killing Germans always feels good for sure.
In the mini campaign (only east front from 41 to 44 with Allies tranfers) we played the other day the Germans (me) always had a TAC in Narvik anyways, together with a fleet for Raiding or intercepting lend-lease. So the Allies never took the chance and went through Persia. That takes more SMP and Fleets, but one German TAC sits freezing up there all game for not much.
I am doubt this is worth it in a complete game where the TAC would bee needed in the med to keep Italy floating. But that we will see when playing a full campaign.
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Ernie Copley
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Agabdir wrote:
Hi Ernie,

Thank you for answering so quickly!


e_copley wrote:

3) it's mostly your first sequence, but I don't know why you'd base U-Boats in the Murmansk Box and then try to intercept in the Narvik Sea Area; interception by on-board U-Boats is not automatic, nor is counter-interception by on-board ASW;


Well that was my question: where do I put the SUBs I mean to use to intercept lend-lease? in the Murmansk box necessary?
I would say the most rational place would be the Narvik box, since the convoy must go through it, so interception roll would be the easiest, and I could bring German TAC to help in combat and interception roll.

If interception is not automatic, where is the port of origin for the U-Boats? do you count the 2 ASW as part of the moving force? or do they have to roll to counter-intercept? from which port ? Scapa Flow?

e_copley wrote:

C. I have never seen this happen in an actual game - after three rounds of naval and/or naval/air combat, one side or the other is the winner. If it's the Allies the convoy proceeds; if it's the Axis, it doesn't. It's hard to imagine the Allies lost (or gave up) after sustaining only one Depletion. Whether the losses are sustained by the ASW or the Fleets, it's a moot point - the Allies won the naval battle or they didn't. If they won, survivors drop off the NARFs at Murmansk, they're added to the Soviet NARF level, and the Allied force returns to Scapa; if, say the escorts got massacred after one round, presumably the Allied Fleet carrying NARFs would give up and go back to Scapa if it was probable that the Fleet would se sunk on Round Two.


I guess that's where it is not clear to me (and I've read the same question in other places from other players): what is "loosing" or "winning" a naval battle? Not only for the Murmansk run but in general.
If only one side remains alive I guess I can figure who won, but there are 3 rounds, so let's say it is a tight one (for example 2 English fleet + 1 CV/NAC and 2 ASW vs 1 German TAC + 2 U-Boats, fairly balanced) and after 3 rounds there are 2 depletions on one side and 1 on the other side. Nobody broke off. What happens ?

In the rule 7.10 I think it says that if one fleet of the force is depleted, the whole force must sail back home:
"The only way to get Depleted Fleets safely home to a shipyard is for the owning player to break off the action with all the units involved in the air/naval or naval battle."
But that applies only at the end of the combat, so after the 3rd round, on when one player breaks off.
So to me that would mean that in my example both players have lost. So the German U-Boats would have to sail back wherever, and the Brits back home.

Or do you consider that the side with 1 depletion won 2-1 ?
Or do you count the number of remaining fleets ?
Or do you consider that the phasing player has won if he still has surviving units at the end of the 3rd round, and can therefore go on ?

e_copley wrote:

Fyi, use of on-board SW units is rare - until 1943, both sides almost always want all their U-Boats/ASW in the U-Boat War Box. And by 1943 and thereafter, the Allies usually have plenty of Fleets.
Also, if there are too many German air/naval units guarding the Murmansk route, the Allies will usually send Lend-Lease via Persia instead. They'll use Murmansk only that's insufficient and if the Soviets are in urgent need (which can happen) and it's worth the risks.

Fyi, I like to use my British carriers to sink the Kriegsmarine in port if I can - the Germans are often careless about placing their Fleets.



Sure, killing Germans always feels good for sure.
In the mini campaign (only east front from 41 to 44 with Allies tranfers) we played the other day the Germans (me) always had a TAC in Narvik anyways, together with a fleet for Raiding or intercepting lend-lease. So the Allies never took the chance and went through Persia. That takes more SMP and Fleets, but one German TAC sits freezing up there all game for not much.
I am doubt this is worth it in a complete game where the TAC would bee needed in the med to keep Italy floating. But that we will see when playing a full campaign.


Hello Robin,

In order:
1) If SW units are being used as on-board units, you have to base them somewhere, just as if they were Fleets - so the U-Boats would be based in Narvik or the Murmansk Box and the ASW in Scapa, just as you would do for Fleets;

2) the point of origin for the U-Boats is their home port - which would be Narvik or Murmansk; the ASW and any other Fleets the Brits care to use would presumably sail with the Fleet carrying the NARFs; no need to bother with counter-interception if you do it that way;

3) re: winning and losing naval battles - please see section 7.9.5, second sentence, next to last paragraph "...at the end of the Third Round, the phasing player may continue his mission, if he has any surviving units..." Unless the German have wiped out the escorts and the Fleet carrying NARFs, the convoy gets through. It's possible that one or more of the survivors will be Depleted, but if they survive three rounds, they get through;

4) I think you've misunderstood the intent of 7.10. The rule is there (among other reasons) to prevent a player from sending Depleted Fleets home after each round, thus insuring (unrealistically) that he's always fighting with 100% intact forces during all three rounds. As per "3)" above, if the British Fleet carrying the NARFs survives three rounds of combat, the Brits "win" in the sense that they complete their mission. Of course, if they lose 2 Fleets in the process, it's a Pyrrhic victory, but a victory nonetheless. The Germans "win" (that is, defeat the mission) if they wipe out the convoy, otherwise not.

5) Okay, good points re: campaign games. The real limit on the Germans making it very difficult or impossible to send NARFs via Murmansk is that they need those air units elsewhere. You need one FTR to really protect the Kriegsmarine from British carriers and one TAC to beat up British convoys. In a full campaign game, the Germans often do not have the luxury of tying so much air power up in Narvik and/or Murmansk.

Hope this helps,

ernie
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Robin Lapinou
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Okay thanks it is getting clearer:

2/ do the ASW / U-boats count toward stacking limits in the port?

3/ Good to know!
But I guess the First paragraph of 7.10 is clear enough: depleted units cannot continue transporting, invading or stratmoving units. But they can continue moving, stratmoving by themselves or stratmoving NARFs, or conduct CV strike or SBS or escort for other fleets in the same force.
Correct ?

So we could summarize the naval battle aftermath step that way:
"1.Non-phasing units
1.1 Non-phasing undepleted units go back to their ports of origin
1.2 Non phasing depleted units go to the nearest shipyard for repair

2.Phasing units
2.1 Any depleted fleet carrying units (not NARFs) must abort its mission and go back home for repair immediately. Cargo unit is depleted as well.
2.2 Other surviving units, depleted or not, may choose to continue their mission normally.

However when breaking off voluntarily, the whole force must break off. "

Correct ?

However when you say that the only way for the non-phasing player to win the battle in by destroying all enemy units, then what did you mean by the following sentence in 8.2.1 ??
"If the stratmoving player wins the battle,
he may proceed with the stratmove mission. If he loses, the nonphasing
player now controls that Sea Area; the phasing player’s
units (assuming any of them survived), must return to their port
of origin."

4. last question:
what happens to the fleet(s) transporting lend-lease to Murmansk? must they end their turn in the Port of Murmansk ? or can they revert back with remaining Mvement points ? Are W.Allies naval units allowed to stay in a Soviet port ?



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Ernie Copley
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Agabdir wrote:
Okay thanks it is getting clearer:

2/ do the ASW / U-boats count toward stacking limits in the port?

3/ Good to know!
But I guess the First paragraph of 7.10 is clear enough: depleted units cannot continue transporting, invading or stratmoving units. But they can continue moving, stratmoving by themselves or stratmoving NARFs, or conduct CV strike or SBS or escort for other fleets in the same force.
Correct ?

So we could summarize the naval battle aftermath step that way:
"1.Non-phasing units
1.1 Non-phasing undepleted units go back to their ports of origin
1.2 Non phasing depleted units go to the nearest shipyard for repair

2.Phasing units
2.1 Any depleted fleet carrying units (not NARFs) must abort its mission and go back home for repair immediately. Cargo unit is depleted as well.
2.2 Other surviving units, depleted or not, may choose to continue their mission normally.

However when breaking off voluntarily, the whole force must break off. "

Correct ?

However when you say that the only way for the non-phasing player to win the battle in by destroying all enemy units, then what did you mean by the following sentence in 8.2.1 ??
"If the stratmoving player wins the battle,
he may proceed with the stratmove mission. If he loses, the nonphasing
player now controls that Sea Area; the phasing player’s
units (assuming any of them survived), must return to their port
of origin."

4. last question:
what happens to the fleet(s) transporting lend-lease to Murmansk? must they end their turn in the Port of Murmansk ? or can they revert back with remaining Mvement points ? Are W.Allies naval units allowed to stay in a Soviet port ?





Hello, Robin, in order:
1)okay, good;

2) yes, as 1/2 Fleet each;

3) correct; re: non-phasing units - also correct; re: phasing player's units - okay, correct;

re: 8.2.1 - I mean that phasing naval players are not required to commit suicide - if they're getting the worst of it after round one or round two, they don't sail into certain death on Round Three; they break off, and the non-phasing player now controls the Sea Area. The non-phasing player can "win"(in the sense that he defeats the phasing player's mission) if the phasing player's force is either wiped out or gives up and goes home. Your previous questions focused on a resolution after the end of the Third Round; usually, if a player is facing unfavorable odds, he probably breaks off at the end of Round one or Round Two, which he's allowed to do.

4) they go back to their home port, not Murmansk, and they cannot base in the USSR ; and USSR includes the Murmansk Box.

hope this helps,

ernie
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Robin Lapinou
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All good then.
Thank you!
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