Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
65 Posts
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 

Gloomhaven» Forums » General

Subject: Cheesing the Enhancement System rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Andrew DeWitt
United States
Ohio
flag msg tools
Avatar
Lets say my group is Prosperity 6.

Creating a new Character nets me 105 gold.

What is to stop me from using that character solely for enhancement gold? I can make as many new characters as I want and 100+ gold is no small amount it pretty much gives me 6 free enhancements for EVERY SINGLE CLASS I have unlocked.

Am I missing something in the rules that prevents this? Just seems extra cheesy.

Recommended fix would be Starting Gold Must be used before that characters first scenario and only for Items.


Rulebook p.42 wrote:
A player can start a character at any level equal to or lower than the prosperity level of the city (see Gloomhaven Prosperity on p. 48 for details). If a player starts a character above Level 1, they should go through all the steps outlined on p. 44 for each level increase in sequence, up to and including their chosen starting level. In addition, a newly created character receives an amount of gold equal to 15x(L+1), where L is their starting level. A character starts with an amount of experience equal to the minimum required for their level (the number listed below that level on the character sheet).


Rulebook p.46 wrote:

The total number of enhanced cards in a class’s ability deck must be equal to or less than the prosperity level
of the town.

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Darren Nakamura
United States
Columbus
Mississippi
flag msg tools
http://www.destructoid.com/author.phtml?a=1364
badge
Darren@destructoid.com
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
DasGooch wrote:
What is to stop me


The desire to play the game, not just get the shiny thing you get for having played the game.

The voice in your head that brought you to ask this question on these forums. The one that knows this is cheesy.

Otherwise, nothing.

DasGooch wrote:
Recommended fix would be Starting Gold Must be used before that characters first scenario and only for Items.


If you are already at high enough prosperity to start with a substantial amount of gold, I don't think there's anything wrong with spending your starting gold on an Enhancement rather than gear. (Actually, I think it's the less effective option.)

So the fix wouldn't be to limit starting gold to only items. The fix would be to not start a character and immediately delete it just for enhancements to that class. Just don't do it. No rules fix needed.
23 
 Thumb up
0.05
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
MA A.
Canada
flag msg tools
I don't think anything prevents you to do that, but at this point you could just enhance any card you want. For me at least I wouldn't do that because I like the feeling of finally having enough money to enhance the card I want.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andrew DeWitt
United States
Ohio
flag msg tools
Avatar
Dexter345 wrote:

So the fix wouldn't be to limit starting gold to only items. The fix would be to not start a character and immediately delete it just for enhancements to that class. Just don't do it. No rules fix needed.


I get what your saying but we have rules in games for reasons and we make corrections to those rules when we find weird cases like this.

You can't restrict people from creating new characters because that is like hacking off an entire arm when you get a paper cut. So restricting people to only buying things that persist with that character is the best possible solution I can come up with.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matthew Gardner
msg tools
mb
After you cheese the enhancements, feel free to auto-fail your next scenario after a bad road event so you can restart without penalty, and also you might as well set the scenario level to 0 since they are only recommendations and not strict rulings. And don’t forget to also create infinite characters to donate infinite gold to the temple! All in jest of course, I know you weren’t seriously planning to abuse the enhancement system, just pointing out that it could be done.
13 
 Thumb up
0.05
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andrew DeWitt
United States
Ohio
flag msg tools
Avatar
mgardner0 wrote:
After you cheese the enhancements, feel free to auto-fail your next scenario after a bad road event so you can restart without penalty, and also you might as well set the scenario level to 0 since they are only recommendations and not strict rulings. And don’t forget to also create infinite characters to donate infinite gold to the temple! All in jest of course, I know you weren’t seriously planning to abuse the enhancement system, just pointing out that it could be done.


Infinite Gold to the temple is another great example! Is there seriously no rule against this as well? Giving the player access to such a large sum of gold should come with restrictions. There is already a decent precedent for restricting what gold can be used for when you first unlock enhancements.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Darren Nakamura
United States
Columbus
Mississippi
flag msg tools
http://www.destructoid.com/author.phtml?a=1364
badge
Darren@destructoid.com
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
DasGooch wrote:
Dexter345 wrote:

So the fix wouldn't be to limit starting gold to only items. The fix would be to not start a character and immediately delete it just for enhancements to that class. Just don't do it. No rules fix needed.


I get what your saying but we have rules in games for reasons and we make corrections to those rules when we find weird cases like this.

You can't restrict people from creating new characters because that is like hacking off an entire arm when you get a paper cut. So restricting people to only buying things that persist with that character is the best possible solution I can come up with.


I don't see why you couldn't restrict people from starting a character just to add an Enhancement. If you're adding house rules, just add that one. If you want something easily measurable, say you can't start a new character until you've played five scenarios with your current character.

The problem with your proposed solution is that being able to start with an Enhancement should be an available option when Prosperity is high enough (if almost always a lesser one). I don't like the idea of taking away options, especially if it's motivated by something you can just choose not to do.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Carsten Neumann
Germany
Düsseldorf
NRW
flag msg tools
'Thematic?'
badge
"Ugh", Hail sighs. "Dispatch these simpletons quickly. I am already bored with them."
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Yes, there is a rule for all the so-called rule problems you mentioned so far. It is called "common sense".
14 
 Thumb up
0.25
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Darren Nakamura
United States
Columbus
Mississippi
flag msg tools
http://www.destructoid.com/author.phtml?a=1364
badge
Darren@destructoid.com
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
DasGooch wrote:
mgardner0 wrote:
After you cheese the enhancements, feel free to auto-fail your next scenario after a bad road event so you can restart without penalty, and also you might as well set the scenario level to 0 since they are only recommendations and not strict rulings. And don’t forget to also create infinite characters to donate infinite gold to the temple! All in jest of course, I know you weren’t seriously planning to abuse the enhancement system, just pointing out that it could be done.


Infinite Gold to the temple is another great example! Is there seriously no rule against this as well? Giving the player access to such a large sum of gold should come with restrictions. There is already a decent precedent for restricting what gold can be used for when you first unlock enhancements.


This one doesn't even require a large sum of gold. You get 30 gold at Prosperity 1 and you're limited to one donation of 10 gold per campaign scenario. But no, there's nothing mechanically stopping you from creating infinite characters, donating each one's 10 gold to the Great Oak, and deleting them.

The only things stopping you are outside of the game rules. Not wanting to ruin your game. Wanting to actually play it. Common sense. Restraint.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Vasilis
Greece
Heraklion Crete
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb

I plan to remove the enhancement stickers from cards when a character retires. Permanently enhancing the next completely different character that just happens to have the same class with the one who retired doesn't really make much sense to me anyway. It may very well be the only thing that I don't like in Gloomhaven. This and maybe the 'no real penalty when losing' thing but that's another story.

I assume that the rule to keep the enhancements on later characters who use the same cards was made out of necessity because stickers are non-removable and not because it was chosen among several design options.

Just my 2 cents.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andrew DeWitt
United States
Ohio
flag msg tools
Avatar
horstderadler wrote:
Yes, there is a rule for all the so-called rule problems you mentioned so far. It is called "common sense".


One person's common sense is not that same as another's.

Rules are in place to make sure we have a source of truth.

I really don't see the issue with my proposed solution. Seems like common sense to me.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andrew DeWitt
United States
Ohio
flag msg tools
Avatar
Dexter345 wrote:


This one doesn't even require a large sum of gold. You get 30 gold at Prosperity 1 and you're limited to one donation of 10 gold per campaign scenario. But no, there's nothing mechanically stopping you from creating infinite characters, donating each one's 10 gold to the Great Oak, and deleting them.

The only things stopping you are outside of the game rules. Not wanting to ruin your game. Wanting to actually play it. Common sense. Restraint.


Exactly stuff like this needs to be cleaned up and prevented in the rulebook not by "common sense".
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Carsten Neumann
Germany
Düsseldorf
NRW
flag msg tools
'Thematic?'
badge
"Ugh", Hail sighs. "Dispatch these simpletons quickly. I am already bored with them."
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
DasGooch wrote:
horstderadler wrote:
Yes, there is a rule for all the so-called rule problems you mentioned so far. It is called "common sense".


Rules are in place to make sure we have a source of truth.


"Source of truth"?
This is still BGG, isn't it?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matthew Gardner
msg tools
mb
Bowmangr wrote:
Permanently enhancing the next completely different character that just happens to have the same class with the one who retired doesn't really make much sense to me anyway.

I am not a fan of this design decision either, but it helps me rationalize it by pretending the character is actively working with the “Brute Guild” to improve training and equipment which has a trickle-down impact on all future Brutes (and since magic is involved, it’s even easier to justify this way).
4 
 Thumb up
0.05
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bradley Reis
United States
Omaha
Nebraska
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
You can't fix stupid.

or

You can't stop people from being idiots.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matt Albritton
United States
Tupelo
Mississippi
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
DasGooch wrote:
Exactly stuff like this needs to be cleaned up and prevented in the rulebook not by "common sense".


Anyone that would actually do the cheese that you are suggesting be fixed by rules, would only house rule it away so they could do what they wanted.

Everyone else would not cheese it whether it was legal or not. I'm really not sure what you are accomplishing with a "fix".
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andrew DeWitt
United States
Ohio
flag msg tools
Avatar
Kubigaruma wrote:
DasGooch wrote:
Exactly stuff like this needs to be cleaned up and prevented in the rulebook not by "common sense".


Anyone that would actually do the cheese that you are suggesting be fixed by rules, would only house rule it away so they could do what they wanted.

Everyone else would not cheese it whether it was legal or not. I'm really not sure what you are accomplishing with a "fix".


I'm trying to raise awareness that giving new characters a ton of gold without restrictions is clearly broken. The best argument I have seen so far is "Don't Do That".

Maybe my proposed fix isn't the best but to say nothing should be done about it in the 3rd edition or the expansion is putting your head in the sand.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mathue Faulkner
United States
Austin
TX
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
DasGooch wrote:
Kubigaruma wrote:
DasGooch wrote:
Exactly stuff like this needs to be cleaned up and prevented in the rulebook not by "common sense".


Anyone that would actually do the cheese that you are suggesting be fixed by rules, would only house rule it away so they could do what they wanted.

Everyone else would not cheese it whether it was legal or not. I'm really not sure what you are accomplishing with a "fix".


I'm trying to raise awareness that giving new characters a ton of gold without restrictions is clearly broken. The best argument I have seen so far is "Don't Do That".

Maybe my proposed fix isn't the best but to say nothing should be done about it in the 3rd edition or the expansion is putting your head in the sand.

Is there anyone using this cheese? Anyone? I doubt it. And of they are, then they would've house ruled it anyway. So of nobody is actually cheesing, then does there actually need to be some clunky rule?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jay Nabedian
United States
Milwaukee
Wisconsin
flag msg tools
badge
All out of bubblegum
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
So, basically you are interpreting the phrase "try something new" in the following passage as "do nothing but enhance a card and quit"?



And you believe that this interpretation breaks the game to such a degree that it deserves a new printing of the rulebook?
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andrew DeWitt
United States
Ohio
flag msg tools
Avatar
mfaulk80 wrote:

Is there anyone using this cheese? Anyone? I doubt it. And of they are, then they would've house ruled it anyway. So of nobody is actually cheesing, then does there actually need to be some clunky rule?


Well I don't think Restricting Starting Character Gold only for items is very clunky at all. Could Probably add it to the Page 42 Paragraph very easily.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dusty
United States
Utah
flag msg tools
My "anti-cheese" ruling would be...

Delete characters? I do not believe there is a rule that lets you do that other than retirement. Also make sure to give each of those new characters a personal goal. One that will permanently be on that useless unplayed character and will never be finished.

Either that or house rule that enhancements only persist if the character actually retires. (Sure this would be a pain with the stickers but it would be an explanation about why you shouldn't create throw away characters)
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andrew DeWitt
United States
Ohio
flag msg tools
Avatar
JJtheJetPlane wrote:
So, basically you are interpreting the phrase "try something new" in the following passage as "do nothing but enhance a card and quit"?



And you believe that this interpretation breaks the game to such a degree that it deserves a new printing of the rulebook?


Nope, but I do think it should be changed in the next edition.

You could interpret try something new as maybe I want to try out a NEW Enhancement so I'll create a new character for my current class so he gets that NEW upgraded card. All of this is perfectly within the rules apparently.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Conor Davitt
United States
Columbus
Ohio
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmb
I'm not sure how 100g will give you 6 enhancements, for one thing. But secondly, the rules do state that character creation is what you do when you retire a character. If you run out of personal quest cards to use for those new characters, they won't ever retire but you can switch characters at any time. To me, that means that you can't just create a character, give it gold, buy enhancements, then "delete" it. The way I read it, you would only ever create a new character when you retire an old one. That would prevent you from infinite gold/enhancements/etc. But also, perhaps it wasn't something the designer considered someone ever wanting to do. If you think there's a loophole for that, then just slap enhancement stickers on every open dot, max out your prosperity, and take any items you want. I mean, in theory you could find a mission with a good amount of gold laying around in easy-to-reach places (and there's at least a couple like that), replay it over and over, and achieve the same results. Then you could say, "Hmm, well I'll just save myself the time and give myself 100 gold." Then you just slide down that slippery slope and give yourself infinite gold. No one is stopping you from doing that, but it just doesn't sound like fun to me.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Postema
United States
Michigan
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I actually think there would be one complication with doing this: each of those characters would tie up a personal quest to infinity. That personal quest deck will thin out real quick by doing this.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andrew DeWitt
United States
Ohio
flag msg tools
Avatar
Ursos wrote:
I'm not sure how 100g will give you 6 enhancements, for one thing. But secondly, the rules do state that character creation is what you do when you retire a character. If you run out of personal quest cards to use for those new characters, they won't ever retire but you can switch characters at any time. To me, that means that you can't just create a character, give it gold, buy enhancements, then "delete" it. The way I read it, you would only ever create a new character when you retire an old one. That would prevent you from infinite gold/enhancements/etc. But also, perhaps it wasn't something the designer considered someone ever wanting to do. If you think there's a loophole for that, then just slap enhancement stickers on every open dot, max out your prosperity, and take any items you want. I mean, in theory you could find a mission with a good amount of gold laying around in easy-to-reach places (and there's at least a couple like that), replay it over and over, and achieve the same results. Then you could say, "Hmm, well I'll just save myself the time and give myself 100 gold." Then you just slide down that slippery slope and give yourself infinite gold. No one is stopping you from doing that, but it just doesn't sound like fun to me.


I think its very clear that Issac wanted to give people the flexibility to create new Characters whenever they wanted. This is a very good thing.

What isn't good is the fact that the starting gold a character gets has no strings attached. When you add legacy aspect to the mix with enhancements and donations things get messy.

That is the issue.

My proposed fix is to simply apply a restriction to that starting lump sum of gold.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.