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Hi, I'm fairly confused about the restrictions regarding the sale of stock in the first stock round.

From the rules at https://boardgamegeek.com/wiki/page/1830_Rules, the relevant section is:

Quote:

12.0 SALE OF RAILROAD STOCK

During his or her turn of a Stock Round a player may sell any amount of Railroad stock except that:

1) No stock may be sold during the first Stock Round.
2) No further stock in a Corporation may be sold if the Bank Pool already holds 50% of the stock in that Railroad.
3) The president’s stock certificate may NOT be sold into the Pool; it can only be disposed of as explained in 13.0.


Two main questions:

1) Does "first Stock Round" refer to the specifically to the very first private auction round, which is technically a Stock Round? Or does it refer to both this round and the subsequent phase of the game when Corporation shares can first be bought?


2) What is the purpose of this restriction on the selling of stocks? What behavior is it trying to curb?


Based on where this rule appears in the rulebook, I would have naively thought that the restriction referred to the round during which Corporation stocks are first bought, but the FAQs at http://www.stciers.me.uk/ftml/30faq.html state that this is not correct and the restriction is during the auction phase (see the "Unsold Private Companies" section).

If the rule really refers to the auction phase, is the rule only preventing the sale of free shares acquired by the C&A and B&O owners as they don't yet have an established price?
 
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Benjamin Benson
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My understanding is...

It does NOT refer to the Private corporation auction.

It is trying to prevent you from buying into a company, like you are going to run it, you buy the presidents share, somebody else buys a share, you buy a share, same OTHER person buys a share (meaning there are 5 shares out), it comes back to you and you dump the company on them before the OP round even starts lowering the value of the company by 3 on the chart and sticking it to that person. OR dumping it to get it into the orange section where then you can buy up as many stock of that company as you want afterwards.

Edit: You couldn't buy up as much as you want, but another player could. You sold it so you are out this round for buying any more of it. But another player could then buy it all up.
 
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Keith Thomasson
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The first stock round consists of the Private Company auction and any purchase of stock from the major railroad companies, until all players have passed. If all players pass before all of the Private Companies are sold the first stock round ends. The next stock round, which continues the private company auction, is the second stock round, during which stock sales would be permitted.

Sonicwarhol, your statement that it is to prevent you dumping the Presidency on another shareholder is not relevant here, and this can still happen in subsequent stock rounds. You may be confusing 1830 with other 18xx games that prohibit the sale of stock in companies that have not yet operated. That rule is not present in 1830.

garret361, your reference to the Unsold Private Companies section of Steve Thomas' 1830 rules clarifications is not actually about restricting the sale of shares to the auction, it is more about the same misunderstanding that Sonicwarhol may be under (and others), i.e. confusing rules from other games with the intention of the 1830 rules.

Once you understand what constitutes the first stock round, the confusion should go away.

Hope this helps.
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keiththomasson wrote:
garret361, your reference to the Unsold Private Companies section of Steve Thomas' 1830 rules clarifications is not actually about restricting the sale of shares to the auction, it is more about the same misunderstanding that Sonicwarhol may be under (and others), i.e. confusing rules from other games with the intention of the 1830 rules.


Can you further clarify what the bolded sentence in the FAQ is referring to?

Quote:
Some groups misinterpret this in two ways. Some lower the price of the Schuylkill Valley Navigation and Railroad Company after all players have been offered it at face value, even if some of those players have chosen to bid on something else. Others forbid the sale of stock until the Stock Round after the one in which Corporation stock is first sold. In both cases, these interpretations are unsupported by the rules as written, all authorities, and my group.


Is it just saying that some groups play that you can't sell stock until the SR after the first corporation stock is sold even when there's been a round of passes during the auction and that this is wrong in this instance? I.e. forbidding these sales is correct if there have been no rounds of passes during the auction, but it's not correct if there's been at least one pass around during the auction?

Thanks for the help! I think every time I play 1830 I have a new rule question which isn't well answered by the rulebook.
 
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Keith Thomasson
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Steve Thomas is commenting that some people incorrectly play that way. What he does not explain (as it wasn't the purpose of the FAQ) is that this rule is found in other 18xx games, such as 1826, 1837, 1853 and 1861 among others. So basically, someone familiar with one of the games that does use this rule have transferred it to 1830 in error.

This rule is not, and has never been, part of the 1830 rules.

While you are learning 1830 or any other 18xx game, you might like to check out the 18xx Rules Difference List - http://www.fwtwr.com/18xx/rules_difference_list/index.htm. This gives answers to common questions on rules from a large number of 18xx games.
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Thanks, that made the meaning of the rule very clear.

However, I still don't understand its purpose. Why have this restriction?
 
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In SR1 where everyone would have at least 300 in their hands would wait until the first company to be floated, buy all the shares, sell it; the second player would follow it, sell it, and then it would reach $10 after 3 players.

Or if you decides to counter play by selling all shares with the 9th is sold, the player get to borrow $670 with 3 shares or 3+2 shares.

Game would be broken if such restriction is not put.
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garrett361 wrote:
I still don't understand its purpose. Why have this restriction?

As I am unsure which rule you are referring to, so I will give you my opinion on both.

The rule that you cannot sell shares in the first stock round of the game dates back to the first 18xx game - 1829 South - published in 1974. The purpose to limit the amount of wheeler-dealing that could be undertaken right at the start of the game. In 1829, stock prices do not fall when shares are sold. It would be possible for players to buy into one company, then sell those shares and move on to the next with no financial loss, introducing early chaos with significantly more companies in operation from the start of the game than the designer intended. Almost all 18xx titles released since then have followed this approach.

The rule that prohibits the sale of shares in a company until it has operated was first introduced in 1853, published in 1989. The purpose here was to further limit the interference non-Directors could apply to a competitor's company. This became popular with some designers for games where the stock price does fall with share sales, as it guarantees that the stock price of a newly floated company cannot be pushed down until it has been able to operate.
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keiththomasson wrote:

The rule that you cannot sell shares in the first stock round of the game dates back to the first 18xx game - 1829 South - published in 1974. The purpose to limit the amount of wheeler-dealing that could be undertaken right at the start of the game. In 1829, stock prices do not fall when shares are sold. It would be possible for players to buy into one company, then sell those shares and move on to the next with no financial loss, introducing early chaos with significantly more companies in operation from the start of the game than the designer intended. Almost all 18xx titles released since then have followed this approach.


An interesting history! This was the rule I was referring to. Am glad to have learned about the history of both rules, though.

I've also just realized that *you* manage the http://www.fwtwr.com/ site you previously linked to. I've found the site extremely valuable on numerous occasions. Thank you for your work.
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