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Subject: Scenario and units question rss

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Leander Leitner
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Hello!

Before mustering your units, do you only know/see YOUR scenario or do both players show their scenarios, build the entire map with hills, victory points etc. and muster their units next?

Basically, do you only know your half of the map or the entire map before mustering your units?
 
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LeanderLeitner wrote:
Hello!

Before mustering your units, do you only know/see YOUR scenario or do both players show their scenarios, build the entire map with hills, victory points etc. and muster their units next?

Basically, do you only know your half of the map or the entire map before mustering your units?

You know the whole map when mustering.
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Leander Leitner
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Thank you!

We already created the map for an upcoming game.
Undead go first...for 3 easy VPs.

Looks unfair to me. Isn't this something I cannot win? Even if I occupy the 2 VP hex later on the Undead player has the advantage of moving first for 3 VPs I cannot do anything against.

 
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Garrett
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It's definitely an uphill struggle. As the Uthuk, if you wanted to stay in the running for VPs, you would need to move four units on your first turn so that you could get three units on hills and one on the VP banner. That would give you 2 points, so you'd only be down by 1. Of course, if you stay that way, you'll soon be down by 2 and then 3 so on.

In such a situation, I think your main goal becomes unit destruction. If you can kill more of his units faster, he will lose the ability to maintain his hexes and you will be able to start taking over on VPs. The sooner you can get him out of the 2-VP banner hex and occupy it yourself, the sooner you can turn things around. Once you obtain that one, you've flipped it so that you're getting 4 VP per round to your opponent's 1.

The approach is particularly difficult in this scenario because the forests are blocking your route to that 2-VP banner. I think your best bet would be to muster the Doombringer and put it on the red deployment hex touching both the hill and the forest. This will allow the Doombringer to burrow to the clear hex adjacent to the 2-VP banner. Now, it's possible your opponent will occupy this hex, but not likely. If they guard the banner that way, they are probably not getting units on the hills. So if they take that banner with infantry or cavalry, you stand a decent chance of taking it over with your Doombringer on your first turn.

Granted, that plan isn't fool-proof. If your opponent foresees this strategy, they could plant Bone Horrors next to the hill hexes. They could then spend two lore in their first turn to move those Bone Horrors onto the left and right hills without using up orders. This would allow them to potentially occupy the 2-VP banner, place one unit adjacent to it in the clear hex, and place another unit on the bridge.

As for bridge placement, I think the obvious choice for the Undead player is to place it below the VP banner. The reason behind this is 1) it makes it harder for the opponent to get to the "back door" and access that VP banner, and 2, your opponent is most likely to attack from the front, so having a bridge means your unit can retreat instead of taking damage from retreating into impassable terrain. It is unlikely that they will put the bridge on the right, which makes the strategy of assaulting that hex with a Doombringer even more likely to succeed.

I think the most unfortunate aspect of this match-up is that the Uthuk list encourages taking Viper Legion, but they're not the most respected unit. A part of me thinks you're better off ignoring archers, but the trouble with that is you won't be able to just sit on hills the whole game if you can't attack from those hills. Blood Sisters are okay, but with all that blocking terrain in the middle, their range and line of sight is pretty limited. I would probably put the Doombringer and Berserkers in the middle section and muster Viper Legion and Blood Sisters units on the outside. The Berserkers and Doombringer will focus down the 2-VP banner while the ranged units focus on pushing enemy units off of the hills on the opponent's side of the board. I would put Viper Legion on your right and Blood Sisters on the left. The increased range of the Viper Legion is just enough that you can shoot from your back hill and hit their hill in the right section. The left section has hills close enough to theirs that the Blood Sisters should be able to hit it.

So after talking through the scenarios and considering the options, I think my recommended army would be something like ...

-Doombringer 1x (8 gold)
-Blood Sisters 3x (15 gold)
-Berserkers 2x (8 gold)
-Viper Legion 3x (12 gold)
-Flesh Rippers3x2x (12 gold)
-Command Tent 1x (-5 gold)
TOTAL: 50 points

Alternatively, you could drop a Flesh Ripper and have 49 points. Now, it's very tempting to rush the Flesh Rippers in right away because of their increased speed, but it is important to hold them back. Let the Viper Legion and Blood Sisters get situated on their hills and start softening up the enemy. When the enemy units have suffered some wounds, then you can release the Flesh Rippers. If several enemies have suffered damage, Flesh Rippers can go from corpse to corpse, tearing them to shreds with the combination of Bloodthirsty and Pursue 2.

Again, this is a very bad match-up, but not unwinnable.
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Leander Leitner
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Thank you for your in-depth analysis! Is it just bad luck or why does the game give you such combinations?

I don't have the Doombringer. I only have the base game + Heralds of Dreadfall.
 
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Garrett
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LeanderLeitner wrote:
Thank you for your in-depth analysis! Is it just bad luck or why does the game give you such combinations?

I don't have the Doombringer. I only have the base game + Heralds of Dreadfall.


It comes down to playtesting time. It's virtually impossible to test all the scenario combinations this game has to offer. Ideally, you'd play each scenario about 10 times or so. With 3 factions and 10 scenarios per faction, you have, what, 300 combinations? To play each one 10 times to test for balance would take 3000 plays. And if you decided to change something about one of those scenarios, you'd have to play that one against each enemy scenario (20 plays) another 10 times, so 200 more plays each time you change something. I don't think that is realistic. I think the designers did the best they could, but some things just didn't get tested enough.

Also, I think the Undead expansions are slightly stronger than the base game or the other two factions. They're far from blatantly overpowered, but after enough plays, their strength really starts to show, in my opinion. Consider that Heralds of Dreadfall follows a few years of development beyond the core, so there may be some power creep there (maybe). I think having Warband of Scorn would really even up the score.

And finally, I think that Uthuk scenario is generally just one of the weakest scenarios overall. I think almost any scenario with that one could be considered a bad match-up, and a lot of that boils down to the weakness of the Viper Legion as a unit and the fact that this scenario pushes a Viper Legion strategy so hard. But again, I don't think Viper Legion are woefully underpowered. Indeed, the math I've seen suggests they are only slightly below the curve compared to damage output of other archers. However, I think they suffer the same effects as the Undead units. Whereas the Undead units are slightly (very slightly) too powerful, that only became apparent after the widespread release. With the Viper Legion, that slight drop in power only manifested itself after years of games. (This is just my opinion on the matter).
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Leander Leitner
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Thanks! Interesting read!

I'll see how it turns out. Will be better than my last game for sure as I misinterpreted my scenario and made a huge mistake.
 
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Giulio
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If I'm not mistaken there are two banners near in open ground. To me, that situation calls for a Chaos Lord. @Garrett: Rippers cost 6. So you have 2 of them.


Edit: I was mistaken! See the picture below. Apparently, I'm unable to mentally "rotate" an image.
 
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Garrett
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g1ul10 wrote:
If I'm not mistaken there are two banners near in open ground. To mee, that situation calls for a Chaos Lord. @Garrett: Rippers cost 6. So you have 2 of them.

Thanks for catching my math error. I originally had 2 in there but when I changed it to 3, I forgot to add another 6 gold.

I see what you mean about the Chaos Lord. That could be instrumental in holding the 1-VP banner. But then, that's only one point. However, without a Doombringer, that's probably not a bad choice.

Flesh Rippers might be good for taking the 2-VP banner, but since forests slow you to a movement of 1 anyway, maybe it's better to place a pair of Obscenes to assault that hex. I'm especially concerened about the Barrow Wyrm taking that hex. I don't really have an answer for that. I suppose you have Viper Legion come around the left flank and shoot across the river.
 
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Leander Leitner
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Thanks!

Played three games, blue vs. red and I lost, blue vs. purple twice and lost twice.

Maybe I should tell my friend to take blue next time.
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Leander Leitner
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Question: the Uthuk archers have +1 range and they can shoot over A terrain hex or ONE terrain hex? It says "1" in the German version...but it could mean "a" or "one" in German.

Not my video...found it on Youtube. This game was close...17 - 15 for the Undead player but the other player had a different scenario.

 
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Leander Leitner
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So it begins:



The end:



I lost 13-17. I had the 2 VP hex once...and was in the lead but had bad luck by not having an attack card for the center...and when I played "Kriegkunst" (art of war?) my opponent played a lore card that didn't let my boss monster and another one move at all...it was exciting though.

QUESTIONS:

1) How many units can be plagued or poisoned? Without a limit or only as many tokens there are in the game?

2) A legendary monster cannot be weak due to health points can it? But it can be weak because of a plague token?
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Garrett
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1) The English text for the Uthuk scenario C2, Howling Giant Hills, says "The maximum range of friendly archer units is increased by 1. Friendly archer units can trace line of sight through 1 hex of blocking terrain. VP Step: Gain 1 VP if friendly units occupy more hill hexes than enemy units." Let me know if you still need clarification on that.

2) Condition tokens like blight and poison are not limited by the number of tokens in the box. If you run out, you can use substitute tokens.

3) You are correct about legend units and blight (plague) tokens. Although legend units are not considered week due to having a single figure, blight does make them weak.
 
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Leander Leitner
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Thanks!

Just ordered the addons for blue and red and Terror of the Mists...and the Giant and the Red Dragon.

1) Can you mix them as you like? For example, 4 cemetaries and 6 skeleton units? (purple player)

Or Citadel Guards from both the base game and the addon? (blue player)

2) The blue and red addons boxes have these...don't know the proper name...obstacles, hedges...that deal damage when passing them without stopping. Can they be used for every army including the Undead?
 
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Garrett
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Yes, you can mix the red expansion units with the red ones from the core. You can also mix purple guys from both boxes.

The off-white neutrals can be added to any army.

The spikes terrain hexes can be used by either army. Usually, I just give 2 to each player to muster and they can choose whether to muster them or not.

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Leander Leitner
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Thanks!
 
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Leander Leitner
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I have another question.

Ranged units adjacent to ranged units have a ranged attack with the pierce symbol. The rules say that all units are able to advance and counter...

1) Does a ranged unit counter with a ranged attacked and pierce symbols? I think it does but I want to be sure.

2) The only way a ranged unit is allowed to advance is if the target was adjacent, correct?

3) How does the plaguelands hex work? The German translation is not that good...

An enemy unit on the hex is weak...but I don't understand the dice part...

"When the Undead player resolves an attack for a friendly unit occupying a plaguelands hex, he may commit any number of [1 sword icon] die results to cause one damage each".

so the Undead unit is on the hex...but what's the purpose?

4) When using a command tent you must place it in the front line of your units. T = tent, U = unit. Example:

TU

or

U
T

but not

U
T

What about cemeteries (C)?
They aren't units.

Is this allowed?

C
T U
 
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1) Yes, but only if adjacent to the attacker.

2) Correct

3) It lets undead units that normally couldn't us sword results to do so.

4) I would need to double check the rules.
 
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Leander Leitner
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Thanks!

1) Plaguelands:
so if an Undead unit standing on the plaguelands hex is weak it may use a cleave symbol to deal damage? What about archers standing on the hex? Can they attack adjacent units with cleave AND pierce symbols? Can they use a ranged attack with pierce AND cleave symbols?
Or does the hex only boost weak units so they also hit with a cleave symbol?

2) Card "Wave of..", 16/20 (I have the German version so I don't know the English title of the card)...

The card is played after the activation step. "Activate one Wyrm unit in addition to the actiovations of your command card".

If you want to activate the Wyrm with your normal command card, can you activate it TWICE in your turn? Command card + lore card?

3) You place the plaguelands tile by playing the lore card...after an enemy unit has been destroyed you place it on its hex...what if it is placed in a forest for example? Does the plaguelands tile replace the forest and its effects?

4) Master Archer card, 12/20: the card is played after your movement step. You can select archer units...is the lore card an ADDITIONAl attack? Can you use it after your movement step to deal damage with an archer unit, then attack with the same unit again in its attack step?

5) Citadel guards..."instead of using advance, they may move 1 hex and attack again"...

Isn't this the same? "Move one hex and attack again"... OR aren't they allowed to move into the hex they would enter by advancing? Do they have to move somewhere else and attack???
 
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Good questions. I'll need to check rules tomorrow to be sure for most of them, but I can tell you that the Barrow Wyrm lore card will not allow you to order a single Wurm two times. It needs to be a Barrow Wyrm you did not order with your regular orders because it is "in addition to."

EDIT: I just saw your PM that said these questions were urgent. Sorry I didn't see it sooner, but I was at the airport for 15 hours on Saturday and was at church for 8 hours on Sunday, so I haven't had a lot of time to check the forums this weekend. Hopefully this gets to you in time. If not, my sincerest apologies, but at least you'll know for next game.

Cemetary (graveyard) deployment: The rules for the command tent only reference units, so as I read it, there is no problem with placing these deployment cards in front of your command tent.

1) Plaguelands question: That's an interesting one I hadn't seen before. As far as I can tell, the ability for the Undead player to commit cleave results to cause damage is not tied to the unit being weak, so it seems that Undead ranged units will also be able to commit cleave results to cause damage while occupying a Plaguelands hex. Personally, I don't believe this was an intended effect of the Plaguelands hex, but I can't be sure and I think it's best to play with the rules as written.

2) See first paragraph above.

3) The lore card that places a Plaguelands hex is Curse of Decay, card 10/20. It uses the term "clear hex" which specifically refers to a hex that has no terrain tiles on it. If the unit is in a forest, you can play the card to cause 1 damage, but you cannot put a Plaguelands tile in its hex, even if it is defeated.

4) Deadeye Marksman, 12/20. This card is complicated and easy to misinterpret. It is not an attack, so you will still be able to attack with your archers later in the round, if they were ordered. However, you do not need to have an ordered archer in order to use this card. You roll 4 dice. For each die showing one of the three symbols on the card (pierce, heroic, or morale), you choose 1 enemy unit within 3 hexes of an archer unit. These units do not need to be within 3 hexes of the same archer unit. Each of the chosen enemy units suffers 1 damage. You cannot choose the same unit twice, so the maximum damage any enemy will take from this lore card is 1, but you could end up dealing 1 damage to up to 4 enemy units, depending on how your dice roll goes.

5) Normally, a unit can advance into a hex if the following criteria are met:
-the attacker is adjacent to the target
-the target retreats or the target is eliminated
With the Pursue ability of the Citadel Guards and Flesh Rippers, you must move into the hex that the target previously occupied. This should be in the rules reference if you look up the name of the ability that lets them move and attack instead of advancing. So the Citadel Guard will always move just like he is advancing, but will then get to make a second attack (which doesn't have to be against the same target). Because Flesh Rippers have Pursue 2, they can move 2 hexes before making their attack, but the first hex must be the hex they would have advanced into and they cannot move back into the original hex they were in when they made the attack that triggered the Pursue ability.
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Leander Leitner
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Thank you!
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Leander Leitner
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Garrett, thanks for your in-depth replies. Really helpful!

Some new questions were raised during our game today.

1) Is a conter considered a normal attack? A unit of Obscenes attacks Rune Golems with four dice...the Golems are allowed to counter...do they get an extra die as the Uthuk unit is adjacent to Riverwatch Riders? Is flanking passive or is the Riverwatch Riders bonus only applied to active attacks?

2) Command card "Desperate Ploy". Weak units may deal damage with cleave symbols. Does this include archers, even when the target is more than 1 hex away?

Last time we talked about a similar question (plaguelands hex bonus and archers).

The question is if they are allowed to use it OR archers only deal damage with pierce symbol, no matter what an command or lore card says.
 
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LeanderLeitner wrote:
Garrett, thanks for your in-depth replies. Really helpful!

Some new questions were raised during our game today.

1) Is a conter considered a normal attack? A unit of Obscenes attacks Rune Golems with four dice...the Golems are allowed to counter...do they get an extra die as the Uthuk unit is adjacent to Riverwatch Riders? Is flanking passive or is the Riverwatch Riders bonus only applied to active attacks?

Yes, a counter is treated like a normal attack for (almost) all purposes. The only main exceptions that I can think of right off hand is that you cannot advance from a counter (which would mean you can't use things like Pursue, either), and the counter doesn't generate another counter in return. But most of the same rules and steps are followed just like another attack, including bonuses and other ability effects.

Quote:
2) Command card "Desperate Ploy". Weak units may deal damage with cleave symbols. Does this include archers, even when the target is more than 1 hex away?

Yes, if they are weak, the card would apply even to Archers, regardless of distance.

Quote:
Last time we talked about a similar question (plaguelands hex bonus and archers).

The question is if they are allowed to use it OR archers only deal damage with pierce symbol, no matter what an command or lore card says.

Archers normally just hit on pierce results. However, if an ability (like Desperate Ploy, etc) says to hit on another result, those results can also hit, even for archers. It's not that they "cannot" use the cleave and strike results, it's just normally for archers it's the Pierce results that matter.
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Leander Leitner
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Thank you!

I forgot to post another question...
The manual explains that damage is dealt before retreat effects...but what about unit abilities?

1) Rune Golems roll strike, heroic and retreat. Is the target first stunned (so it cannot retreat), then it suffers 1 wound (strike) and another one because it cannot retreat anymore?

2) Flesh Rippers attack a unit that has full health. If they roll strike and heroic symobol, it does not count as extra damage as the target would have to be wounded in a previous battle.

3) Same for Viper Legions...heroic symbol and lore symbol...can the target be poisoned first (heroic symbol), then it suffers 1 damage (lore)?

 
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LeanderLeitner wrote:
Thank you!

I forgot to post another question...
The manual explains that damage is dealt before retreat effects...but what about unit abilities?

1) Rune Golems roll strike, heroic and retreat. Is the target first stunned (so it cannot retreat), then it suffers 1 wound (strike) and another one because it cannot retreat anymore?

Yes.

Quote:
2) Flesh Rippers attack a unit that has full health. If they roll strike and heroic symobol, it does not count as extra damage as the target would have to be wounded in a previous battle.

No, because the "Commit Dice" step comes before the damage steps. So at the time the Flesh Ripper has to commit the Heroic results to do extra damage, the condition is not satisfied (ie, at that point, the target has not taken any damage). Even if the target takes damage later in that sequence, it only matters what their condition is at the time you commit the die. Note that damage dealt is not actually APPLIED until later.

So basically, the ability only works if the target was damaged BEFORE the attack.

Quote:
3) Same for Viper Legions...heroic symbol and lore symbol...can the target be poisoned first (heroic symbol), then it suffers 1 damage (lore)?

Yes, because both effects can happen during the "Commit Dice" step, and you can choose which order to commit the dice. So you could commit the Heroic die to poison the target, then commit the Lore die to damage the target.

(To combine #3 and #2, if the target was already poisoned, but undamaged, you still could not use Bloodthirsty even if the Flesh Ripper rolled a Lore and a Heroic. While the Lore would cause a damage to be applied, you don't actually apply the damage in the "Commit Dice" step; you basically just add the damage to the "damage pool" to be applied later. So even if you apply the Lore die first, the target is not yet damaged when the Heroic die is committed).
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