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Subject: Upcoming SGs and thoughts on miniature count rss

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Marco Herreras
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Hi all,

I am considering backing PA, and of course, I want to see as much value as possible packed with my first circle (entry-level) KS pledge, lest I would wait for retail, as 1) sadly I can not afford the superior level pledges, and 2) shipping to Europe sometimes eats the Stretch Goals extra value.

Looking at the SGs so far, it might seem there are not many miniatures... just a feeling. Current SG was extra trooper cards and now a new region card.
I can’t help thinking about Agents of Mayhem, another a-priori-it’s-a-dudes-on-a-map-game, also now on KS, which imho, (aside of bigger problems) did not include enough miniatures right among midcampaign SGs, to attract the casual backers and the miniature-greedy backers; their kicktraq curves went down. Fortunately this is not the case with PA.

Looking at PA SGs so far and the progression, one could think there is 1 more demon, 2 more lords, 1 more map, 2 more card sets, and 2 more regions coming, to have 3 of everything (why not 6 of everything? LOL)...

So, just as a kind of academic exercise, I have computed an index for a-priori-it’s-a-dudes-on-a-map-game campaigns, what I call the Stretch Goal Miniature Greed Index, or how many miniatures are there in the SGs:

Multiply 1) the ratio of extra SG minis to total minis at core pledge level (at campaign end), by 2) the number of total minis at core pledge level at campaign end, referred to the maximum sample value, and divide by 3) the funding success ratio, multiplied by 4) the core pledge cost in USD referred to the maximum in the sample.

So for example, PA starts with 29 minis, has so far 7 more in SG (+24%), for a (as for now) total of 36 (Cthulhu Wars maximum of 164); core pledge is 99 USD (Cthulhu Wars maximum of 150), and it’s forecast to end at 410,11%. That yields 5,73 (with a 100 cosmetic factor to throw numbers around 10).
The index punishes few miniatures, few extra SG miniatures, high core pledge price, and overfunding.

Results are shown in the chart below.



PA at 5,73 is below the average of 8,06. Tinkering a bit shows that adding just another 3 miniatures in the upcoming SGs (eg 2 lords and 1 demon as I said) would put PA confortably next to Human Interface: Nakamura Tower, and adding another 16 would make it #1 (assuming announcing so many more SG minis wouldn’t attract more new backers, increasing funding and slightly decreasing the index).

So, my conclusions so far:
1) Just announcing 3 more minis among the PA SGs would hinder the suspicion that there are few minis in the game (yes I know a game is not just minis, but this is not an abstract Euro you buy just for gameplay)… it saddens the greedy person in me who would like more minis added right now in the SGs, thinking that would bring more non-niche backers…

2) I feel PA business model is tailored for completists, with basic pledgers being a marginal bonus. Just pledge for everything, you get a zillion minis and components. It might be interesting to implement another index aimed at comparing maximum pledges, but I won’t as I can not afford them…

My point is that Petersen Games don’t really need at this point to announce many more SG minis to attract casual backers who might be discouraged by the apparent low mini count (and I bet it was totally the opposite case with the Agents of Mayhem campaign 10 days ago).

3) Awaken Realms games are definitely different games than the rest of the sample, and they’re very comfortably selling their gameplay].

4) Not the most funded games pack the most minis...
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Shelby Babb
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By numbers, there might not be a ton of minis compared to other games.

But most of these minis are big enough to use as murder weapons and beat someone to death with.

I jest, but the scale of these minis (and boards) really needs to be considered by the "OMG MINEEZ!!1!" crowd.
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Marco Herreras
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Sure, beats me how to factor that ... some of the other games also feature big minis, but not as many...
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Barry Duran
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Going with your analysis ( which omits everything outside of the number of minis, including the quality/design/size of the minis let alone art, game design, quality of components, number of components ... oh, and that minuscule point of gameplay ), I would say reducing the size of the minis some and adding more would've been the smarter play. I don't need a weapon sized mini - storing them is inefficient and takes up too much space on the board. Nice that they're big, but maybe a bit too big.
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Ray
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Yeah size is huge with Petersen game minis. Volume is height times width times length. So a mini 3 times taller is as much as 3*3*3=27 minis. 4 times as tall is the size of 4*4*4=64 minis! Most of the biggest minis of other games such as Blood Rage or Rising Sun are only twice as tall - those giants are not very giant. For PG it’s a huge factor with these monstrous minis.
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Marco Herreras
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gelaar wrote:
which omits everything outside of the number of minis, including the quality/design/size of the minis let alone art, game design, quality of components, number of components ... oh, and that minuscule point of gameplay )

LOL But that was the point! I wanted to isolate and quantify the miniature-greed effect. I am obviously not backing or purchasing based solely on mini count.

gelaar wrote:
I don't need a weapon sized mini - storing them is inefficient and takes up too much space on the board

Interesting point... I wonder what percentage among backers are true miniature painters and would approve of the extra size... Some friends told me Cthulhu Wars minis came pre-coated with varnish and are very difficult to paint.
 
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Marco Herreras
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wtrollkin2000 wrote:
Yeah size is huge with Petersen game minis. Volume is height times width times length. So a mini 3 times taller is as much as 3*3*3=27 minis. 4 times as tall is the size of 4*4*4=64 minis!

Still, I totally ignore miniature production shenanigans, but aside of the pure plastic cost by weight, there might be some economies of scale? as in "the cost for casting a 3 times taller mini is just 1,2 the cost of casting the "1-sized tall" mini...
 
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Marco Herreras
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San Dee Jota wrote:
I jest, but the scale of these minis (and boards) really needs to be considered by the "OMG MINEEZ!!1!" crowd.


Reading diagonally the comments in KS it would seem they keep stuffing low-production-cost SGs like gift cards or region cards... the OMG mineez!!! crowd is probably going for maximum pledges...
 
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Barry Duran
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Ciniconoclasta wrote:
gelaar wrote:
which omits everything outside of the number of minis, including the quality/design/size of the minis let alone art, game design, quality of components, number of components ... oh, and that minuscule point of gameplay )

LOL But that was the point! I wanted to isolate and quantify the miniature-greed effect. I am obviously not backing or purchasing based solely on mini count.

Understood, but how cool or how bad the mini's look impacts the mini's crowd. So at least add a 2nd dimension to your analysis to see the effects of SG's on the mini's crowd. I think you're on to something, interesting analysis, but think the "look" of them is important. To use your example, Agents of Mayhem mini's look poor compared to PA ( my opinion, of course, but I think many people would agree on my point while opinions differ, there is crowd likes and dislikes ).
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Marco Herreras
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gelaar wrote:
So at least add a 2nd dimension to your analysis to see the effects of SG's on the mini's crowd. I think you're on to something, interesting analysis, but think the "look" of them is important. To use your example, Agents of Mayhem mini's look poor compared to PA ( my opinion, of course, but I think many people would agree on my point while opinions differ, there is crowd likes and dislikes ).


Yes, thanks for the tip! This was like the first shot, but there's definitely more info to code, like the look (from pure subjective aesthetics to production quality [eg Doom2004 vs Doom2016]and the size...
 
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Rick S

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Still, I totally ignore miniature production shenanigans, but aside of the pure plastic cost by weight, there might be some economies of scale? as in "the cost for casting a 3 times taller mini is just 1,2 the cost of casting the "1-sized tall" mini...

Large minis are typically multiple pieces that must be assembled, so you end up with more molds/mini and an extra cost for labor to assemble them.
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NZ Nick
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Agreed, not enough mini's for the price.
 
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Marco Herreras
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nzbiship wrote:
Agreed, not enough mini's for the price.


Well, that's what I tried to shed some light on with a more scientific approach of examining pure objective data (even if the index construction is subjective) from a sample of games... and my conclusion so far is that if PG squeeze 3-4 minis in the upcoming PA's SGs then the price would be fair. And that's not taking into account the minis are exceptionnaly large nor if they are better cast or more eye-catching.

But anyway, anybody else feels the campaign is stalling and they should not have unveiled three "duh stretch goals" in a row (gift cards, region card, gift cards)?
 
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Sam
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I think you guys are a little confused. The campaign did stall, they unveiled most if not all of their minis plus a massive all-in pledge to jumpstart it, now they got a big boost but have run a little lower on stretch goals. I imagine they’re saving something cool for the last day or two, but doubt there’s more than that.
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Mark G
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Ciniconoclasta wrote:
But anyway, anybody else feels the campaign is stalling and they should not have unveiled three "duh stretch goals" in a row (gift cards, region card, gift cards)?


I feel the opposite, in regards to stalling. Hasn't it been over the past few days they did about 25K? I could have those numbers wrong, but they shouldn't be wildly out from that.

Compared to the days and days it took to get 20K in the middle for the Inferno map. At least, it felt like it took days and days.

Personally, I feel the number of minis is worth it.

For $100 US, you get:

8 Heroes, each a unique sculpt
10 Larvae
6 Gryllus
4 Fiends
2 Cacodemons
4 4th Circle Demons, each a unique sculpt
2 Lords, each a unique sculpt

36 minis for $100 seems like a decent deal, and then there's the rest of the game and components to consider. Add to that, some of the minis are very large.

I feel like some folks may not have backed Cthulhu Wars, and they don't realize the detail or size of some of the minis. As a backer of all the CW stuff, I can say with confidence that if the minis of PA live up to that level of quality (and we have no reason to believe they won't), then $100 for that is a deal.
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Marco Herreras
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detritus9 wrote:
I think you guys are a little confused. The campaign did stall, they unveiled most if not all of their minis plus a massive all-in pledge to jumpstart it, now they got a big boost but have run a little lower on stretch goals. I imagine they’re saving something cool for the last day or two, but doubt there’s more than that.


Sam, point taken. I saw the KS upon launching but only joined a few days ago, so I missed all that.
 
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Marco Herreras
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Mortavius wrote:
I feel the opposite, in regards to stalling. Hasn't it been over the past few days they did about 25K? I could have those numbers wrong, but they shouldn't be wildly out from that.

Compared to the days and days it took to get 20K in the middle for the Inferno map. At least, it felt like it took days and days.

Probably, I missed all that. Something happened though on the 11th that boosted the kicktraq curve...

Mortavius wrote:

36 minis for $100 seems like a decent deal, and then there's the rest of the game and components to consider. Add to that, some of the minis are very large.

Agree, point taken.

Mortavius wrote:

I feel like some folks may not have backed Cthulhu Wars, and they don't realize the detail or size of some of the minis. As a backer of all the CW stuff, I can say with confidence that if the minis of PA live up to that level of quality (and we have no reason to believe they won't), then $100 for that is a deal.

Some friends of mine are not backing PA because they would paint the minis (I won't) and according to them, CW minis came pre-coated and are difficult to paint, can you confirm that, please?
 
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Adam Starks
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I haven't painted my own CW figures yet, but know people who have, and haven't heard of any steps beyond "wash with soap, then prime, then paint", which is standard best practice for most minis.
 
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Mark G
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AdamStarks wrote:
I haven't painted my own CW figures yet, but know people who have, and haven't heard of any steps beyond "wash with soap, then prime, then paint", which is standard best practice for most minis.


I would add to this. I've seen lots of paintings of the CW minis, and no one ever said anything about a varnish. Wash, prime, and paint seems to be just fine.

Sly Mcnasty haunts these and the CW boards, and he's done some remarkable paintings. In fact, he even has a thread here in PA about it. I'd ask him directly if he ran into any trouble.
 
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Dave Dierks
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I painted all my CW minis and had no problem.

Mine get used regularly and if you bulletproof them (two coats of gloss, two coats of Dullcote) they stand up to regular handling quite well.
 
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Marco Herreras
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AdamStarks wrote:
I haven't painted my own CW figures yet, but know people who have, and haven't heard of any steps beyond "wash with soap, then prime, then paint", which is standard best practice for most minis.

Good to know, thanks! I will not paint mine, but this could bring my friends to back PA.
 
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Marco Herreras
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Mortavius wrote:
AdamStarks wrote:
I haven't painted my own CW figures yet, but know people who have, and haven't heard of any steps beyond "wash with soap, then prime, then paint", which is standard best practice for most minis.


I would add to this. I've seen lots of paintings of the CW minis, and no one ever said anything about a varnish. Wash, prime, and paint seems to be just fine.

Sly Mcnasty haunts these and the CW boards, and he's done some remarkable paintings. In fact, he even has a thread here in PA about it. I'd ask him directly if he ran into any trouble.

Great, thanks!
 
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Marco Herreras
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mallachain wrote:
I painted all my CW minis and had no problem.

Mine get used regularly and if you bulletproof them (two coats of gloss, two coats of Dullcote) they stand up to regular handling quite well.

I will re-check then with my friends for their CW minis... maybe I can bring them to back PA.
 
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Ciniconoclasta wrote:
mallachain wrote:
I painted all my CW minis and had no problem.

Mine get used regularly and if you bulletproof them (two coats of gloss, two coats of Dullcote) they stand up to regular handling quite well.

I will re-check then with my friends for their CW minis... maybe I can bring them to back PA.


I washed all my figures in soapy water, let dry, then sprayed with Krylon black Primer.

I have never had any difficulty painting them! If you add acrylic paint directly to the plastic, you will have a bad time though. I have not painted much of other plastics, so maybe they are used to some plastics that take paint directly? I know Warhammer plastic requires primer as well and will not take paint directly.
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Sandy Petersen
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I'm going to have to stick with my company line of "the figures are really large." I do really appreciate this analysis though.

here's a thing to consider. In a typical Cthulhu Wars faction, there are 16-18 figures, of which only one or occasionally 2 are large (the GOOs).

A large number of the Planet Apocalypse figures are oversized 4th circle demons or Lords. In fact, of the 47 figures, 29 are oversized, well over half. Compare to Cthulhu Wars in which in the core game of the 64 figures only 4 are what I'd term oversized. Maybe 8, if you count the Dark Young and King in Yellow.

So the PA figures are individually and as a group impressive. Of course if you just go by figure count there are not as many, but if you just go by figure count you should be getting Twilight Imperium 4th edition. It has over 300 plastic pieces.
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