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Subject: Unique Situation Involving Disadvantage rss

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Jeff Knapp
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I'll keep this brief and simple:

I have Iron Helmet (treats x2 modifier as a +0)
Enemy is disadvantaged (ranged Bandit Archer, backed into a corner, at melee range)
Enemy attacks, is therefore disadvantaged, draws x2 and +1 from modifier deck.

Does my Iron Helmet apply to the cards as drawn, or only after the lesser modifier card is chosen? Is the x2 considered a +0 and therefore is taken over the +1, or is the +1 less than the x2 as drawn, so it is chosen thus bypassing the Iron Helmet effect?

Similarly, if the enemy were Advantaged instead, which of those cards would have been chosen...?

(My apologies if this has been asked before.)
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Slawomir Stankowski
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The wording on the card suggests it applies to the cards as they are drawn by the enemy. In this case the disadvantaged enemy uses +0 and the one with the advantage uses +1.
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Scott Wheelock
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I treat it as the text reads: you consider the 2x to be a +0, compare the +0 to the +1, and the Bandit Archer gets +0 to their attack.
 
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Matthew Gardner
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The rules say to use whichever card is worse (for disadvantage) or better (for advantage). x2 is clearly worse than +1 when the base attack value is zero.

EDIT: sorry, misread/misunderstood original post, this comment does not apply to that situation at all.
 
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jef stuyck
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you decide which is worse.

same question can be asked if you get
disarm + 0
or
immobilized + 0

which is worse?
 
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Slawomir Stankowski
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Banemus wrote:
you decide which is worse.

same question can be asked if you get
disarm + 0
or
immobilized + 0

which is worse?


This is totally different

From FAQ:
Ambiguous or Tied Situations wrote:
Note that ambiguity with respect to attack modifier cards drawn for advantage/disadvantage are not decided by the players - the rule book states how to resolve that (use the first drawn card).
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Jay Johnson
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Banemus wrote:
you decide which is worse.

same question can be asked if you get
disarm + 0
or
immobilized + 0

which is worse?

If you are playing by the exact rules as written, that example would yield an ambiguous result, and thus you would choose whichever card was drawn first.

rulebook pg 21 wrote:
If there is ambiguity about which card drawn is better or worse, use whichever card was drawn first. Ambiguity
can occur when comparing one or more added effects provided by attack modifier cards (e.g., elemental
infusions, negative conditions, etc.) All added effects should be considered to have a positive but undefined
numerical value.
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Jay Johnson
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But to answer the OP's actual question, I don't think there is an official ruling as to whether the comparison takes into account item effects such as the helmet, or if it goes only by what is written on the card.

I would lean toward it factoring in the helmet effect so that you would be looking at +0 vs. +1,
similar to how if you somehow have a base attack of 0, that would make a +2 card better than a 2x card.
 
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Darren Nakamura
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In another thread, we've been making the argument on +0 Stun vs. +1 against an already Stunned enemy. Advantage/Disadvantage only take into account the attack modifier drawn, not the entire game state. The 2x is "better" than the +1.

I think with Disadvantage it would take the +1 and deal more damage. It takes the worse card, even if it ends up with a better result once everything is resolved.
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Michael Lee
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The same thing happened in our game last night. We didn't even think about it and used the +1. But reading the Iron Helmet card again, it literally says to consider the x2 as a +0. A disadvantaged monster would use the +0 instead of the +1. Hmm...I wonder if that cost us the game. We barely lost the scenario.
 
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Jay Johnson
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Dexter345 wrote:
In another thread, we've been making the argument on +0 Stun vs. +1 against an already Stunned enemy. Advantage/Disadvantage only take into account the attack modifier drawn, not the entire game state. The 2x is "better" than the +1.

I think with Disadvantage it would take the +1 and deal more damage. It takes the worse card, even if it ends up with a better result once everything is resolved.

So under that logic, the 2x is the "better" card no matter what, even vs. a +3 when the base attack is 1? Otherwise you are looking at the game state beyond just what was drawn.
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kornetmuse kornetmuse
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Dexter345 wrote:
In another thread, we've been making the argument on +0 Stun vs. +1 against an already Stunned enemy. Advantage/Disadvantage only take into account the attack modifier drawn, not the entire game state. The 2x is "better" than the +1.

I think with Disadvantage it would take the +1 and deal more damage. It takes the worse card, even if it ends up with a better result once everything is resolved.


That was what I thought to write here with a little bit of troll . But if you read the helmet card it is written "consider any 2x card the ennemie draws as a 0 card."

I think the word "draws" make the difference here. As soon as the x2 is drawn it is "replaced" immediatly by a 0 card.

That way, we can avoid another nonsense situation \o/ whistle
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Darren Nakamura
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Ehh, I guess I have seen the situation where there's been an Attack 1 with a 2x and a +2, and ruled that the +2 is better in that case.

Still, it seems like there's a distinction here. All of that happens on the attacker's side. It's stuff you can say across the board, no matter what you're attacking, Attack 1 with a +2 is better than Attack 1 with a 2x.

If you take into account the defender's equipment, now you're making different rulings on the same attack depending on who it's targeting. That doesn't seem all that far off from taking into account the defender's status effects.
 
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kornetmuse kornetmuse
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Dexter345 wrote:
Ehh, I guess I have seen the situation where there's been an Attack 1 with a 2x and a +2, and ruled that the +2 is better in that case.

Still, it seems like there's a distinction here. All of that happens on the attacker's side. It's stuff you can say across the board, no matter what you're attacking, Attack 1 with a +2 is better than Attack 1 with a 2x.

If you take into account the defender's equipment, now you're making different rulings on the same attack depending on who it's targeting. That doesn't seem all that far off from taking into account the defender's status effects.


The first step through the resolution is to consider what does the word "draws" means on the helmet.

If it means what it means in the dictionnary, it's transformed into a 0 before doing anything else (comparing with the first card or draw a second card).
If it means "picks" then I agree with your interpretation.

Besides, if we want to go deeper. x2 is not a +value, it's more an effect so shouldn't it be kind of ambiguous ?

That's why the rules should take in consideration a bit more than the cards itself but shhhh don't want to start another debate here
 
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Darren Nakamura
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It's really a question of when the Iron Helm's ability "happens." The Leather Armor's ability necessarily happens before the attack modifiers are drawn. With Hide Armor, that gets resolved after damage is calculated. Iron Helm is always on, so does that mean it transforms the 2x into a +0 immediately after it's drawn, or that it transforms the 2x into a +0 after an Advantage/Disadvantage comparison is made?

I'm starting to get convinced because of the language of "draws" on the card, but I wouldn't be surprised of an official ruling in either direction on this one.
 
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Bjorn B
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I own that helm for 5+ scenario's and never had it triggered. I don't see why you won't use it.

Looking at the rules, it says to use the worst card. I would read that as the card that ends up with the worst result. They don't say to use the card with the lowest value.

Assume an attack 1. You have disadvantage and draw x2 and +2. In this case the x2 is the worst card.
 
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kornetmuse kornetmuse
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DobbelB wrote:
I own that helm for 5+ scenario's and never had it triggered. I don't see why you won't use it.

Looking at the rules, it says to use the worst card. I would read that as the card that ends up with the worst result. They don't say to use the card with the lowest value.

Assume an attack 1. You have disadvantage and draw x2 and +2. In this case the x2 is the worst card.


Even if I totally agree with you, this could lead you to a house rule (and to be shamed for questionning the logic of a rule ).

It is hard to write a rule 100% efficient and Isaac got trapped with this.

there's many cases where the result is ambiguous. In response Isaac said that all non numeric values have a undefined positive value (does this applies to x2 to because of not being a numerical value ? ). And to simplify even more the rule he sayed that you don't consider the board to define what is better or worse. You only compare the card drawn. And if it's ambiguous regarding Isaac definition of ambiguous, you pick the first one.

This simplification has the merit of being very simple to apply and not arguing with compagnions. But it can leads to unlogical situations
 
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Alex Florin
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Per the FAQ:

If I have advantage or disadvantage, how do I determine whether one attack modifier card is better or worse in the case of effects on the card beyond the typical +/- modifiers? How do I know when a comparison of the cards is mathematically ambiguous?
All effects listed on the card (negative conditions, elements, healing, etc.) have a positive but undefined value. Note that only the values and effects as listed on the cards are considered when doing a comparison - no other game effects or conditions should be considered.

The operative part for the OP is: no other game effects or conditions should be considered
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j ribs
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aflorin wrote:
Per the FAQ:

If I have advantage or disadvantage, how do I determine whether one attack modifier card is better or worse in the case of effects on the card beyond the typical +/- modifiers? How do I know when a comparison of the cards is mathematically ambiguous?
All effects listed on the card (negative conditions, elements, healing, etc.) have a positive but undefined value. Note that only the values and effects as listed on the cards are considered when doing a comparison - no other game effects or conditions should be considered.

The operative part for the OP is: no other game effects or conditions should be considered


For this case, when drawing a 2x, it is literally a +0 instead. The item doesn't need to be used or declared, it is constant, never-ending.
 
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Alex Florin
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I asked Isaac and item effects are not considered, including the iron helmet's effect. I've updated the FAQ to clarify this.
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Chris Sauro
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aflorin wrote:
I asked Isaac and item effects are not considered, including the iron helmet's effect. I've updated the FAQ to clarify this.
Is this intended to be a reversal of his previous statements on the matter?
 
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Alex Florin
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masterzora wrote:
aflorin wrote:
I asked Isaac and item effects are not considered, including the iron helmet's effect. I've updated the FAQ to clarify this.
Is this intended to be a reversal of his previous statements on the matter?


Huh. I will have to ask because both him and I had forgotten about that ruling.
 
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kornetmuse kornetmuse
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The advantage/disadvantage is being more and more unclear .

And the more you customize your deck, the more advantage is no more an advantage .
 
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James J
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aflorin wrote:
masterzora wrote:
aflorin wrote:
I asked Isaac and item effects are not considered, including the iron helmet's effect. I've updated the FAQ to clarify this.
Is this intended to be a reversal of his previous statements on the matter?


Huh. I will have to ask because both him and I had forgotten about that ruling.


I guess what this means is that it doesn't really matter, as long as you stick to one ruling. This also implies that the game might not be as finely balanced as I had thought (which is fine) and that a lot of rulings Isaac makes really are more about them being simple to follow, than about ensuring the whole thing is perfectly balanced.
 
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Jay Johnson
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Jjdelanoche wrote:
I guess what this means is that it doesn't really matter, as long as you stick to one ruling. This also implies that the game might not be as finely balanced as I had thought (which is fine) and that a lot of rulings Isaac makes really are more about them being simple to follow, than about ensuring the whole thing is perfectly balanced.

In the big scheme of things, that is probably the way to go.

balance-wise, the more flexibility that is allowed in subjective choices, the more it will make the game "easier" since players will always try to bend things in their favor.

Especially when it comes to anything involving non-standard AttMod cards (rolling modifiers, status effects, etc.) since the player decks are the only ones that ever get those things (Monster AttMod deck only ever has the basic cards, plus Bless and Curse, which mirror the basic cards to some extent)
 
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