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Subject: Phases with the Monster Being Defeated rss

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Kristy Moruso
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Hey ya'll!
So I just played this game at my FLGS' game night (twice in a row) but we had some questions:
1.It says when the monster is defeated, you immediately resolve the rewards and reset, is this properly interpreted?
2.It says immediately, but do you finish the turn first (phases etc) or do you just go right to the next one? We still lost but for some reason finishing out the turn seems too forgiving. At the same time, it's probably for continuity reasons.
It's going to be hard not continually bringing this one! Thanks gamers!
 
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Steve C
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datpusheen wrote:
Hey ya'll!
So I just played this game at my FLGS' game night (twice in a row) but we had some questions:
1.It says when the monster is defeated, you immediately resolve the rewards and reset, is this properly interpreted?

Kinda... You always get a total of 5 player turns before a new monster is drawn. Even if you somehow magically break all the curses on the first turn, there are then 4 turns to bulk up. "Kinda" because you effectively defeat a monster when all curses are broken, however you do not actually resolve "monster defeat" until the end lf the fifth player turn.

datpusheen wrote:
2.It says immediately, but do you finish the turn first (phases etc) or do you just go right to the next one? We still lost but for some reason finishing out the turn seems too forgiving. At the same time, it's probably for continuity reasons.
It's going to be hard not continually bringing this one! Thanks gamers!

It's kinda like there is a non-turn after the end of the fifth player turn, but before the start of the first player turn for the next monster. This non-turn has the following steps:

* Check to see if all curses are broken
* If yes, resolve "monster defeat" effect
* If no, resolve "bad stuff" or whatever thr actual term is, and remove curse cards from the board
* Flip the page and see what new monster comes out, resolving the effect on the monster cards and placing curses where appropriate.
* Move on to first player turn
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Christoff Jordaan
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The manual states that after a monster is resolved (defeated or undefeated) apply the applicable result then immediately move on to turn 1 of the next round. Monster resolution only occurs after turn 5 of a round, however (so think of it as: after turn 5 move on to turn 1 of the next monster but immediately before doing so resolve the current monster).

This does mean that if the party clears all the curses before the 5th turn they get a bit of free time to prepare for the next threat, though if you feel this is too forgiving remember that there are a couple of ways listed in the manual to make the game more difficult (Terror AND/OR Nightmare mode in addition to the level of the curses per round track).

Edit: too slow, above post basically covers it.
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Kristy Moruso
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Akado wrote:
datpusheen wrote:
Hey ya'll!
So I just played this game at my FLGS' game night (twice in a row) but we had some questions:
1.It says when the monster is defeated, you immediately resolve the rewards and reset, is this properly interpreted?

Kinda... You always get a total of 5 player turns before a new monster is drawn. Even if you somehow magically break all the curses on the first turn, there are then 4 turns to bulk up. "Kinda" because you effectively defeat a monster when all curses are broken, however you do not actually resolve "monster defeat" until the end lf the fifth player turn.

datpusheen wrote:
2.It says immediately, but do you finish the turn first (phases etc) or do you just go right to the next one? We still lost but for some reason finishing out the turn seems too forgiving. At the same time, it's probably for continuity reasons.
It's going to be hard not continually bringing this one! Thanks gamers!

It's kinda like there is a non-turn after the end of the fifth player turn, but before the start of the first player turn for the next monster. This non-turn has the following steps:

* Check to see if all curses are broken
* If yes, resolve "monster defeat" effect
* If no, resolve "bad stuff" or whatever thr actual term is, and remove curse cards from the board
* Flip the page and see what new monster comes out, resolving the effect on the monster cards and placing curses where appropriate.
* Move on to first player turn

Maybe I was just in a hurry, but I didn't see anything like this at the time OR the two times I went through the rules. Also, you'd have to break all curses turn 1 for any reasonable amount of players to have "free time" (in a 5 player game), so to me it seems pointless. Again, I haven't the slightest clue where in the rulebook this is stated and I don't have time to check today.
EDIT: I looked again in more detail and I still don't see it. Maybe it's an omission of the rule in a new edition or something. It seemed rather inane and dumb (at least to me) so I was probably going to play without it regardless.
 
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datpusheen wrote:
Also, you'd have to break all curses turn 1 for any reasonable amount of players to have "free time" (in a 5 player game), so to me it seems pointless.
Well, the game is arguably harder with more players, but in our 4-player games it's quite common to get rid of all curses in turn 1. In fact, I consider these 'free' turns crucial to reliably winning the game. They allow you to prepare for the next monster, setting up everything to break all curses as early as possible again.
They're also important because this first 'super-turn' often leaves one or more players with very few cards in hand.
 
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Steve C
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jhaelen wrote:
datpusheen wrote:
Also, you'd have to break all curses turn 1 for any reasonable amount of players to have "free time" (in a 5 player game), so to me it seems pointless.
Well, the game is arguably harder with more players, but in our 4-player games it's quite common to get rid of all curses in turn 1. In fact, I consider these 'free' turns crucial to reliably winning the game. They allow you to prepare for the next monster, setting up everything to break all curses as early as possible again.
They're also important because this first 'super-turn' often leaves one or more players with very few cards in hand.

While I've never been able to break all curses before turn 3 (and only then in the second half of the game), remember that Telekinesis allows other players to take 1-3 actions during someone else's turns, AND they can also cast their own telekinesis to give another player 1-3 actions.

Putting cards into support allows for any player at the table to use them, so combining good support pools with telekinesis makes it much easier to break curses early.

Another thing to remember, when a player breaks a curse, they gain a level2 element of their choice into their discard pile, allowing them to improve their deck. Any free turn allows that player to improve their deck as well, so it's possible for 3-4 new level2 elements to be gained each monster.
 
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Kristy Moruso
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I’m still not understanding. The rulebook says you only draw cards at the end of your turn unless you use Earth magic which becomes exhausted upon use until the beginning of your turn (concentration phase). Each curse is either FOUR of an element or One of EACH. Even with 5 players and 6 cards each (assuming none are madness), destroying 4-5 curses in one turn seems next to impossible.
Also, no one addressed my concern that these mythical “free turns” (that only some players would get) is not in the rulebook!! Unless my physical rulebook AND the one on BGG is incomplete, I don’t think these free turns exist...
Let the response to this post ACTUALLY ADDRESS MY CONCERNS, if ya’ll don’t mind. (Not to sound prissy)
 
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datpusheen wrote:
1.It says when the monster is defeated, you immediately resolve the rewards and reset, is this properly interpreted?
2.It says immediately, but do you finish the turn first (phases etc) or do you just go right to the next one? We still lost but for some reason finishing out the turn seems too forgiving. At the same time, it's probably for continuity reasons.

The rulebook could use a better layout...

Page 7, the "immediately" section you are referring to should be a sub-section of "If the Invocation marker lands on the Invocation space:" (the circle-arrow). The Monster/Curses are only ever reset when you get to the Invocation space.

So if you defeat all Curses when the marker is at space 3, then you still have all of space 4 and space 5 to do with as you will. Then after space 5 you check if "monster defeated? Yes/no".

The Invocation space is also a 'non-turn' kind of thing that happens between spaces 5 and 1.

The turn counter is also why this game is more difficult with 4 or 5 players as opposed to 2 or 3. There is just that much less time to 'improve' your deck.
You are correct that hands are only refilled at then end of that player's turn, which contributes to the 'harder with more' problem. There are a few spells that can help with this (spread throughout the elements), but no guarantee that they'll even show up (Levitation Air-2, and Raining Frogs Water-2 are the most helpful here).


Hopefully this clears up most of your questions.
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Kristy Moruso
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grarrrg wrote:
datpusheen wrote:
1.It says when the monster is defeated, you immediately resolve the rewards and reset, is this properly interpreted?
2.It says immediately, but do you finish the turn first (phases etc) or do you just go right to the next one? We still lost but for some reason finishing out the turn seems too forgiving. At the same time, it's probably for continuity reasons.

The rulebook could use a better layout...

Page 7, the "immediately" section you are referring to should be a sub-section of "If the Invocation marker lands on the Invocation space:" (the circle-arrow). The Monster/Curses are only ever reset when you get to the Invocation space.

So if you defeat all Curses when the marker is at space 3, then you still have all of space 4 and space 5 to do with as you will. Then after space 5 you check if "monster defeated? Yes/no".

The Invocation space is also a 'non-turn' kind of thing that happens between spaces 5 and 1.

The turn counter is also why this game is more difficult with 4 or 5 players as opposed to 2 or 3. There is just that much less time to 'improve' your deck.
You are correct that hands are only refilled at then end of that player's turn, which contributes to the 'harder with more' problem. There are a few spells that can help with this (spread throughout the elements), but no guarantee that they'll even show up (Levitation Air-2, and Raining Frogs Water-2 are the most helpful here).


Hopefully this clears up most of your questions.

That helps, but it seems kind of dumb still. Also in my situation I'd end up playing it full player count (with the number of people possibly interested). With the earliest a monster being defeated for us being space 3 or 4, I think that at the full player count it would be unfair to give SOME people ability to improve their deck simply due to turn order.
I might try it "proper" at some point but probably not, as again it makes no sense to me. I guess it's a house rule that should have been the actual rules...
EDIT: It says "immediately move the invocation marker to space 1" under "If all curses are destroyed", "regardless of bonus or penalty".
 
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datpusheen wrote:
That helps, but it seems kind of dumb still. Also in my situation I'd end up playing it full player count (with the number of people possibly interested). With the earliest a monster being defeated for us being space 3 or 4, I think that at the full player count it would be unfair to give SOME people ability to improve their deck simply due to turn order.

Recommended by the FAQ:
"The last player of the round becomes the first player of the next round. They play 2 consecutive turns: one when the Invocation marker is on space 5, then another against the following Monster, when the marker is on space 1."

Feel free to further adjust to the start player of your choice.

Link to Official FAQ:
https://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/131375/faq-cheat-sheet-st...

datpusheen wrote:
EDIT: It says "immediately move the invocation marker to space 1" under "If all curses are destroyed", "regardless of bonus or penalty".

See Previous note on 'rules layout needs work'.
"If all curses are destroyed" is a sub-section of "marker lands on the Invocation Space", the "immediately" text is also a sub-section of "marker lands on Invocation space" as indicated by "Regardless of bonus or penalty" which references the results of marker on Invocation space.
As in:
'Immediately after you are done with the Invocation space result move the marker to space 1...'

From the FAQ:
"Does the round end as soon as the Monster is defeated (that is, once all Curses are destroyed)? No: a round always plays over 5 turns, even if there are no more Curses to destroy. Players can take advantage of this to prepare for the next round by acquiring new Elements, learning Spells from the Library, or even placing cards in the support pool."
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Kristy Moruso
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Still not using those rules; they're odd and confusing and dumb. Thank you.
EDIT: I may use the rules if I remember them, but it might be a few weeks before I bring it to game night again (because I like to mix it up). Sudden change of mind.
 
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Matthieu BONIN
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datpusheen wrote:
Still not using those rules; they're odd and confusing and dumb.
Well, the designer and publishers spent 4 years playing dozens of games and figuring out the best possible rules for the game, but, hey, feel free to use any house rule you don't find "dumb". Just don't complain if you feel the game is not well-balanced then.
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