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Subject: Few questions before I pull the trigger rss

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Hugh Jorgan
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Background

I'm looking for a solo play game that's similar to Eric Lang's '7 sins'.
I'm very much a fan of Kingdom Death and trying to avoid getting reeled into an expensive game for it's miniatures, however, I absolutely love the demon theme and just need the gameplay to convince me.

Questions:

1.) What's the setup and pack away time?
2.) How much table space does it take up?
3.) Is there a lot of book keeping and management?
4.) I'm looking for something strategic and complex while having relatively
simple rules, without too many rule exceptions and being too busy.
Does this game fit the bill

Thanks, folks.
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This game is nothing like 7 sins or kmd. I say pass if your looking for a solo game.
 
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Having played the print and play a couple times,

1- Doesn't seems to be too long,
2- Maps and sheets are big, should take a lot of space
3- If you are looking for solo play, the game suggests you use two heroes, but you may want to try using more too. It will take some management but if you are used to playing KDM solo it shouldn't feel like that much.
4- The rules are quite simple, and i felt like it had enough strategic depth. You have to do a ton of actions however (placing demons, moving them, throwing dice, removing demons...) so it's somewhat busy.
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Logan Hallfin
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hwknight wrote:
Background

I'm looking for a solo play game that's similar to Eric Lang's '7 sins'.
I'm very much a fan of Kingdom Death and trying to avoid getting reeled into an expensive game for it's miniatures, however, I absolutely love the demon theme and just need the gameplay to convince me.

Questions:

1.) What's the setup and pack away time?
2.) How much table space does it take up?
3.) Is there a lot of book keeping and management?
4.) I'm looking for something strategic and complex while having relatively
simple rules, without too many rule exceptions and being too busy.
Does this game fit the bill

Thanks, folks.


So... I've been PA crazy for 3 days straight now, played it (TTS,PnP) 4 times, 2,2 and 4,4 player... but keep in mind I'm certainly no expert.

1- Not sure how to gauge this without seeing the inside of the box, if it's got a sorted insert? Very fast, if it doesn't? Not as fast.

2- Tons, this rolls into question #3 (sheets to track everything) Especially if the PnP maps are 1:1 scale with the actual boards, TONS.

3- Kind of, but there's sheets and panels using tokens to track everything round to round... it's not a lot.

4- I think that's a pretty great description of this game actually, for me at least PA seemed super complex and first, then surprisingly easy to get into, but definitely with a learning curve. My main fear is will the game be too easy once you "solve" it. But there are built in difficulty (more difficult) variants and different maps have more or less difficulty also there's lots of different characters to master. Not sure what "busy" means exactly, the game space is busy as heck, but once you've played 2-3 times you shouldn't need any rule checks at all.

You mentioned KDM and its really nothing like that, no campaign story or events, crafting, but yes it's dice heavy, and yes the minis are grotesque (in a good way), so those are similar.

I think its great solo, BUT only if you are prepared to play 4-5 characters multi-handed... but you said KDM... so I bet you are ready to play at least 4.

Now, on the other hand... you said you don't want to get reeled into ([another] ::cough:: kdm ::cough:: ) an expensive mini game. This very much is that. Very very much. Sooooo much. ~350 (with shipping) all in. If it were standees or tokens that would be more like 100. Actually probably less but I don't want to seem like I'm being mean. I'm just stating my opinion that the price of PA reflects the minis... and that's a great thing if you want some super cool huge demonic minis.

Getting those mini's painted might be a big consideration too, it is for me.

Hope that helps, I kinda like talking about this game and I'm not sure why.

Edit: Sorry if the bold seems out of place, but after 4 plays I feel like this is the #1 thing about the game I, personally, want to get across, but like everything else its just my opinion which we all know are like... noses.
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Eric
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Logan, can you talk about what you enjoy most about the game? What makes it fun for you? I haven't had a chance to play on Tabletop Sim yet and I'm going to be backing this fully but I'd love to hear more people talk about what makes the game fun in their opinion.
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Logan Hallfin
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Cosmic Tavern wrote:
Logan, can you talk about what you enjoy most about the game? What makes it fun for you? I haven't had a chance to play on Tabletop Sim yet and I'm going to be backing this fully but I'd love to hear more people talk about what makes the game fun in their opinion.


I like that there's an engine building (some have called it tower defense), efficiency race against the clock, almost puzzle aspect to it. That leads me to a lot of theory crafting in my head, which I love, and with several different maps, characters, legions, demons, and lords, that puzzle might not be as easy to solve as other games that go stale or too easy once you've kinda figured them out. If your group plays well and stacks the right gifts you can build some crazy OP characters, rolling 5-6 dice and attacking from across the board kinda stuff.

Granted it is ameritrash in a huge way and you are always subject to the dice and what gifts you shuffle out.

Some people might think its too ameritrashy like KDM (which I love), but like KDM there wouldn't be those "Yeah, we did it" moments if you took the randomness out it would just be called I win: The game (which is fun too, but not always what we actually want).

Not everything has to be Gloomhaven (which I also love) where you plan everything out, execute everything perfectly and pat yourself on the back for getting all the details right (my mindthief did like 21 damage to a boss on one turn in a +2 scenario for the win and I was pumped).

I also really love the setting and the look of the mini's, always been a sucker for anything with demons. But I'm trying to ignore that for the sake of thinking about the "meat" of the actual game play.

Keep in mind I've been told I'm crazy and don't look at things the right way so if parts of this don't make any sense, that might be why.
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Hugh Jorgan
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RadKit wrote:
hwknight wrote:
Background

I'm looking for a solo play game that's similar to Eric Lang's '7 sins'.
I'm very much a fan of Kingdom Death and trying to avoid getting reeled into an expensive game for it's miniatures, however, I absolutely love the demon theme and just need the gameplay to convince me.

Questions:

1.) What's the setup and pack away time?
2.) How much table space does it take up?
3.) Is there a lot of book keeping and management?
4.) I'm looking for something strategic and complex while having relatively
simple rules, without too many rule exceptions and being too busy.
Does this game fit the bill

Thanks, folks.


So... I've been PA crazy for 3 days straight now, played it (TTS,PnP) 4 times, 2,2 and 4,4 player... but keep in mind I'm certainly no expert.

1- Not sure how to gauge this without seeing the inside of the box, if it's got a sorted insert? Very fast, if it doesn't? Not as fast.

2- Tons, this rolls into question #3 (sheets to track everything) Especially if the PnP maps are 1:1 scale with the actual boards, TONS.

3- Kind of, but there's sheets and panels using tokens to track everything round to round... it's not a lot.

4- I think that's a pretty great description of this game actually, for me at least PA seemed super complex and first, then surprisingly easy to get into, but definitely with a learning curve. My main fear is will the game be too easy once you "solve" it. But there are built in difficulty (more difficult) variants and different maps have more or less difficulty also there's lots of different characters to master. Not sure what "busy" means exactly, the game space is busy as heck, but once you've played 2-3 times you shouldn't need any rule checks at all.

You mentioned KDM and its really nothing like that, no campaign story or events, crafting, but yes it's dice heavy, and yes the minis are grotesque (in a good way), so those are similar.

I think its great solo, BUT only if you are prepared to play 4-5 characters multi-handed... but you said KDM... so I bet you are ready to play at least 4.

Now, on the other hand... you said you don't want to get reeled into ([another] ::cough:: kdm ::cough:: ) an expensive mini game. This very much is that. Very very much. Sooooo much. ~450 (with shipping) all in. If it were standees or tokens that would be more like 100. Actually probably less but I don't want to seem like I'm being mean. I'm just stating my opinion that the price of PA reflects the minis... and that's a great thing if you want some super cool huge demonic minis.

Getting those mini's painted might be a big consideration too, it is for me.

Hope that helps, I kinda like talking about this game and I'm not sure why.

Edit: Sorry if the bold seems out of place, but after 4 plays I feel like this is the #1 thing about the game I, personally, want to get across, but like everything else its just my opinion which we all know are like... noses.


Thanks so much, I should've been a bit clearer on a few things. I was referring specifically to the combat system of KD.
After watching the 'How to Play' video, I got a glimpse of what I dislike about Zombicide; everything boils down to bland dice arithmetic, something like KD has plenty of that, but AI and HL cards make the combat system unpredictable and dynamic.

I'm trying to figure out if PA is like Zombicide in that it's full of pretty minis, but power-ups, monsters etc. only vary by the amount of dice or die results and not by character. I want each demon to feel unique and require a specific strategy.

The similarity with 'The Others', I'm hoping, is that as the game draws out, the demons become more powerful, like the Apocalypse track in 'The Others'. I loved that and I'm hoping PA has the same principal.
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Earth Slug
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Hi,
Played the PnP several times so here is my feedback:

1) with a sorter tray, quick setup. Have seen much worse.

2) 150cm by 90cm for a 3 player setup will do but its crowded.

3)book keeping not too crazy,got health sliders an tokens for courage and such. The control panel keeps the game pace and time to defeat for you.
Managment, if you mean physical interaction with the board, yeah. Lot's of movement and dynamics on the board.

4)going to be honest, strategic may lack in-depth for experienced boardgamers.
But the "conditional acting" is gladly limited, meaning not reading 30 cards to check if your actions were valid.
In-depth strategy, probably alot less than you are used to, wrong decisions are forgiving once or twice but don't make a mistake 3 to 5 times as that could lead to bad defeat on the easy vanilla invasion map.

5)legions getting stronger:
No, actually getting weaker as you level up BUT they start swarming more and more, may feel like losing control sometimes. Woow what the heck where do those keep coming from, when unable to spawn more because the minion pool is depleted,you start scoring doom. Also if the manage to escape,you score more doom.
At 3 and 7 doom, the legions change allegiance and a new legion trait is drawn. For example you catch fire when they hit you, nooooo!

What was cool: last play I had a bad start and legions always were a step ahead of me. Things looked very grim but eventually I pushed a risky card combo.
It was kinda an all in you would do in poker, but the tech tree combo worked and barely killed the demon lord, pheeewww close call.

For me it's hard to write unbiased as I'm all in on this one.

But so far this is my best solo experience ever!
Not trying to convince you here, only way to really know is playing the pnp, doing so only confirmed my all in.
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Earth Slug
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Forgot to say:
Well, the vanilla map was supposed to be easy, see it as a tutorial. Mr Petersen promised me a hard time on the other maps and with all the new gift cards, legion trait cards, 4th circle badasses, new lords with seriously ill powers...

So for strategic, probably looking toward alot of defeats if not playing the best you could!
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The demons have some character (the lords and 4th circles at least, the smaller ones are just scaling in power, with the legion cards adding different powers) but nothing as deep as KDM. Different 4th circles can steal your resources, buff other demons or just be strong in combat, so some of them may be ignored while others you should try to kill asap. In the same way, some lords may reward you for attacking them earlier or multiple times while others you may want to avoid until the end. The heroes also work the same way with a variety of skills. But in the end you are just buffing your guys and rolling dice (while KDM showdowns often rely on certain gear setups, AI/HL control...).

I don't think the demons get stronger the longer the game goes on, it's just that more of them spawn (and the legion card may change, which may be a good or bad thing for the player).
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Hugh Jorgan
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_css_ wrote:
The demons have some character (the lords and 4th circles at least, the smaller ones are just scaling in power, with the legion cards adding different powers) but nothing as deep as KDM. Different 4th circles can steal your resources, buff other demons or just be strong in combat, so some of them may be ignored while others you should try to kill asap. In the same way, some lords may reward you for attacking them earlier or multiple times while others you may want to avoid until the end. The heroes also work the same way with a variety of skills. But in the end you are just buffing your guys and rolling dice (while KDM showdowns often rely on certain gear setups, AI/HL control...).

I don't think the demons get stronger the longer the game goes on, it's just that more of them spawn (and the legion card may change, which may be a good or bad thing for the player).


That's the only thing I loved about Zombicide, the panic as swarms of monsters start coming after you. So, that'll be a plus for me.
On second thought, I've got plenty of games like Mage Knight and KD, which are all about strategy and planning, I'd like something thematic and fun, where I don't have to keep in mind a million rule exceptions, while not being too bland. The theme is simply too alluring, I can't think of any other solo play game, other than Darklight Memento Mori (which I'm awaiting) which plays on the hell theme.

I'd love to play the PnP, but I simply don't have the time right now and my printer is out of ink.

I'm about 60% convinced on keeping my pledge, if I don't like it, I should be able to sell it at a decent price.
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Earth Slug
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Well Eldritch horror goes way deeper than PA for example.
But 10 minutes needed for making a choice, only to draw a card that basically tells you "game over". No thnx...
Loved Eldrith Horror and hope to play it again many times, don't get me wrong.

But PA is more fast paced, waves of demons spamming your heroes and more forgiving in wrong choices.
It comes closest to a video game I ever experienced, placing space alert in silver place now.
Again that's subjective ofcourse.

I highly suggest not to print it yourself,better go to a copy centre but thin out the rule book. Like last 20 pages are maps explainings. Waste of paper,better use pdf for that one.

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Remy

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hwknight wrote:
RadKit wrote:
hwknight wrote:
Background

I'm looking for a solo play game that's similar to Eric Lang's '7 sins'.
I'm very much a fan of Kingdom Death and trying to avoid getting reeled into an expensive game for it's miniatures, however, I absolutely love the demon theme and just need the gameplay to convince me.

Questions:

1.) What's the setup and pack away time?
2.) How much table space does it take up?
3.) Is there a lot of book keeping and management?
4.) I'm looking for something strategic and complex while having relatively
simple rules, without too many rule exceptions and being too busy.
Does this game fit the bill

Thanks, folks.


So... I've been PA crazy for 3 days straight now, played it (TTS,PnP) 4 times, 2,2 and 4,4 player... but keep in mind I'm certainly no expert.

1- Not sure how to gauge this without seeing the inside of the box, if it's got a sorted insert? Very fast, if it doesn't? Not as fast.

2- Tons, this rolls into question #3 (sheets to track everything) Especially if the PnP maps are 1:1 scale with the actual boards, TONS.

3- Kind of, but there's sheets and panels using tokens to track everything round to round... it's not a lot.

4- I think that's a pretty great description of this game actually, for me at least PA seemed super complex and first, then surprisingly easy to get into, but definitely with a learning curve. My main fear is will the game be too easy once you "solve" it. But there are built in difficulty (more difficult) variants and different maps have more or less difficulty also there's lots of different characters to master. Not sure what "busy" means exactly, the game space is busy as heck, but once you've played 2-3 times you shouldn't need any rule checks at all.

You mentioned KDM and its really nothing like that, no campaign story or events, crafting, but yes it's dice heavy, and yes the minis are grotesque (in a good way), so those are similar.

I think its great solo, BUT only if you are prepared to play 4-5 characters multi-handed... but you said KDM... so I bet you are ready to play at least 4.

Now, on the other hand... you said you don't want to get reeled into ([another] ::cough:: kdm ::cough:: ) an expensive mini game. This very much is that. Very very much. Sooooo much. ~450 (with shipping) all in. If it were standees or tokens that would be more like 100. Actually probably less but I don't want to seem like I'm being mean. I'm just stating my opinion that the price of PA reflects the minis... and that's a great thing if you want some super cool huge demonic minis.

Getting those mini's painted might be a big consideration too, it is for me.

Hope that helps, I kinda like talking about this game and I'm not sure why.

Edit: Sorry if the bold seems out of place, but after 4 plays I feel like this is the #1 thing about the game I, personally, want to get across, but like everything else its just my opinion which we all know are like... noses.


Thanks so much, I should've been a bit clearer on a few things. I was referring specifically to the combat system of KD.
After watching the 'How to Play' video, I got a glimpse of what I dislike about Zombicide; everything boils down to bland dice arithmetic, something like KD has plenty of that, but AI and HL cards make the combat system unpredictable and dynamic.

I'm trying to figure out if PA is like Zombicide in that it's full of pretty minis, but power-ups, monsters etc. only vary by the amount of dice or die results and not by character. I want each demon to feel unique and require a specific strategy.

The similarity with 'The Others', I'm hoping, is that as the game draws out, the demons become more powerful, like the Apocalypse track in 'The Others'. I loved that and I'm hoping PA has the same principal.


One of the nice things about PA verse KDM is even though you are throwing dice you get to decide on which enemy / hero the dice affect. So in KDM when I roll and I miss the hit or wound threshold I am out of luck. In PA if I wanted to roll and get 4+s on my 2 dice but I don't I can still probably take out a level 1 demon or a Limbo demon since those will be there and this will at least give me courage and reduce the total number of demons.
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Earth Slug
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Yes indeed... you could roll 5d10 of which only one hits 7 or higher.
The rest can be distributed against lower critters.
This is what makes a good randomiser without making the entire game based on rolls.
Especially Lord battles, hi hits go to the lord, lower to his minions.
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J B
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hwknight wrote:
RadKit wrote:
hwknight wrote:
Background

I'm looking for a solo play game that's similar to Eric Lang's '7 sins'.
I'm very much a fan of Kingdom Death and trying to avoid getting reeled into an expensive game for it's miniatures, however, I absolutely love the demon theme and just need the gameplay to convince me.

Questions:

1.) What's the setup and pack away time?
2.) How much table space does it take up?
3.) Is there a lot of book keeping and management?
4.) I'm looking for something strategic and complex while having relatively
simple rules, without too many rule exceptions and being too busy.
Does this game fit the bill

Thanks, folks.


So... I've been PA crazy for 3 days straight now, played it (TTS,PnP) 4 times, 2,2 and 4,4 player... but keep in mind I'm certainly no expert.

1- Not sure how to gauge this without seeing the inside of the box, if it's got a sorted insert? Very fast, if it doesn't? Not as fast.

2- Tons, this rolls into question #3 (sheets to track everything) Especially if the PnP maps are 1:1 scale with the actual boards, TONS.

3- Kind of, but there's sheets and panels using tokens to track everything round to round... it's not a lot.

4- I think that's a pretty great description of this game actually, for me at least PA seemed super complex and first, then surprisingly easy to get into, but definitely with a learning curve. My main fear is will the game be too easy once you "solve" it. But there are built in difficulty (more difficult) variants and different maps have more or less difficulty also there's lots of different characters to master. Not sure what "busy" means exactly, the game space is busy as heck, but once you've played 2-3 times you shouldn't need any rule checks at all.

You mentioned KDM and its really nothing like that, no campaign story or events, crafting, but yes it's dice heavy, and yes the minis are grotesque (in a good way), so those are similar.

I think its great solo, BUT only if you are prepared to play 4-5 characters multi-handed... but you said KDM... so I bet you are ready to play at least 4.

Now, on the other hand... you said you don't want to get reeled into ([another] ::cough:: kdm ::cough:: ) an expensive mini game. This very much is that. Very very much. Sooooo much. ~450 (with shipping) all in. If it were standees or tokens that would be more like 100. Actually probably less but I don't want to seem like I'm being mean. I'm just stating my opinion that the price of PA reflects the minis... and that's a great thing if you want some super cool huge demonic minis.

Getting those mini's painted might be a big consideration too, it is for me.

Hope that helps, I kinda like talking about this game and I'm not sure why.

Edit: Sorry if the bold seems out of place, but after 4 plays I feel like this is the #1 thing about the game I, personally, want to get across, but like everything else its just my opinion which we all know are like... noses.


Thanks so much, I should've been a bit clearer on a few things. I was referring specifically to the combat system of KD.
After watching the 'How to Play' video, I got a glimpse of what I dislike about Zombicide; everything boils down to bland dice arithmetic, something like KD has plenty of that, but AI and HL cards make the combat system unpredictable and dynamic.

I'm trying to figure out if PA is like Zombicide in that it's full of pretty minis, but power-ups, monsters etc. only vary by the amount of dice or die results and not by character. I want each demon to feel unique and require a specific strategy.

The similarity with 'The Others', I'm hoping, is that as the game draws out, the demons become more powerful, like the Apocalypse track in 'The Others'. I loved that and I'm hoping PA has the same principal.


sorry real quick question. the campaign page has so much cooing on that it's hard to piece it all together. You mentioned all in is about 450 but I'm seeing 299 plus 50 shipping. is there another 100$ worth of stuff not included in that pledge? thanks
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The $300 pledge includes everything.
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Logan Hallfin
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sorry I meant 350, that's what I get for being up too late.

and to the OP: No the combat isn't anything tactical like KDMs mini-wargame like movement and/or drawing AI cards.

It's "choose attacking hero, roll attack dice, spend results."

All demons except 4th circle and lords/ladies have 1 hit point.

Lords and 4th circles do have their own stat sheets with their special attacks and behaviors (kinda like KDMs trait/mood/AI cards, but its all on one sheet and active all the time, but different for each 4th circle and lord/lady)

For example the first 4th circle demon: Hellhound has a special ability that lets him attack from anywhere on the map, and 4 health points, so you need to beat his defenses with 4 separate dice. The first lord actually has two sections, his body, and his wall, each with separate health points that scale depending on the number of players, defeating one "part" weakens his attack dice, for special abilities (without looking) he attacks twice (once at the start of the "helltime" boss round, and once during the enemy attack phase of "helltime"), and any hit sets you on fire.

I do think its like KDM in that there's a lot of dice and luck and randomness (gifts, legions) and its also like KDM in that you need to build your character with useful gifts for their skills and role (like suit sets or affinities in KDM).
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I'd like to add something to the KD:M/PA comparison.

Once you really get into KD:M, you realize that a lot (a lot) of the 'choices' (particularly gear) are not really choices. There are some gear combinations and selections that are just straight up better or outright necessary. Sure, you can play a game with the other stuff, but once you have an optimal strategy in KD:M, there's little impetus to change it up. Expansions/different monsters provide different 'puzzles' but again, once you have the ostensible solution, that's that.

PA doesn't have that. In my experience so far, any choices you make for character progression are legitimately useful. Some will be more useful against certain sorts of demons or scenarios, but they'll always be useful SOMETIME and there's a good selection of generically useful (if sometimes low key) gifts to be had.

PA is otherwise a completely different sort of game than KD:M. It has a comparable amount of randomness with less direct mitigation but a lot of subtle means to enhance chances or make use of results.

Also, way, way less rolling on charts. As in none.
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Barry Duran
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All very interesting conversation ... but this game had me at "demon", so ... oh, and now there's a stretch for a Cthulhu demon, so there's that.
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Sandy Petersen
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Part of my design goal was that the weird nature of the 4th circle and Lord powers and for that matter, the different heroes would make various gifts & upgrade plans need to change out in different games.

In answer to OP's questions - while obviously others have answered these better probably than me.

1.) What's the setup and pack away time? - when I get out my prototype it takes us about 5-6 minutes to set up and maybe the same to take down.

2.) How much table space does it take up? - about the same as Cthulhu Wars, Twilight Imperium, or Arkham Horror sans expansions.

3.) Is there a lot of book keeping and management? - less than Eclipse, more than Caylus.

4.) I'm looking for something strategic and complex while having relatively
simple rules, without too many rule exceptions and being too busy. this was in fact my goal in design. I'll let others declare if I reached it. Wait - there are a lot of little rules exceptions, but they are all based on particular demons or heroes,
and printed on the cards, so not sure if that counts.
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