Awais Bhattee
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I was just going through the list of games that fall under the mechanic of deck building. And I was surprised to find games like Splendor and Roll for the Galaxy under it. Yes, both those games are Engine Building and Tableau Building but that doesnt make them a deckbuilder like dominion or a pool builder like orleans. Is there a way to propose a mass cull of games out of this category?

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You can click on deck-building to see the definition

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgamemechanic/2664/deck-pool-b...

Quote:
Deck / Pool Building is a mechanism in which players start the game with a pre-determined set of cards / player pieces and add and change those pieces over the course of the game. Many deck-building games provide the players with a currency that they use to "buy" new items that are integrated into the deck or pool. These new resources generally expand the capabilities of the player and allow the player to build an "engine" to drive their future plays in the course of the game.

This mechanism describes something that happens in play during the game as a function of the game, not customization of the game from a body of cards prior to play.
 
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Bryan Thunkd
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That’s a bad definition. Deck building should have a requirement that you select items from your deck at some point, either randomly like Dominion or intentionally like Concordia. But just building an engine, like in Splendor, isn’t building a deck. If you don’t cycle through your cards it’s not a deck.
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Russ Williams
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Indeed this is the first time I've ever heard Splendor described as "deckbuilding", and it seems a rather absurd misuse of the term. Players don't even have "decks" in Splendor. They're collecting things which are all permanently always available to them.
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Kevin Flickner
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I agree with earlier comments about Splendor--there's no deck or pool in the game. You are building a tableau.

I had to think about Roll for the Galaxy for a moment but it does have a pool of dice that can be added to, which are discarded after use, and can be re-used. So, I think it fits the category, though it is not what we typically think of.
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Brian M
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I can see Roll for the Galaxy, though its a little stretch. Splendor...just...no.
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Joshua Kuhlmann
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I submitted a correction to Splendor -I think it's clearly not a deck/poolbuilder. While I've never played Roll for the Galaxy, from what I've read about it you have a pool of dice that gets rolled. It's not exactly the same as Orleans/Dominion/etc, but I'd say it's close enough to fit in the category.

If you see other games that you think are categorized incorrectly, you can submit a correction using the pencil icon in the game's category box.
 
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Awais Bhattee
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Woops in my head i read Race for the Galaxy not Roll.

I wonder if someone made the mistake for splendor considering spice road would be classified same as if concordia is.

I havent played the following but can someone confirm or deny if they are deck/pool builders:

-Civilisation 2010
-Lewis and Clark
-Robinson Crusoe: Adventures on the Cursed Island
-Food Chain Magnate
 
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ZuggyG wrote:


I havent played the following but can someone confirm or deny if they are deck/pool builders:

-Robinson Crusoe: Adventures on the Cursed Island


The designer of Robinson Crusoe considers that the deck building mechanic from Dominion inspired the mechanic of adding bad cards to the event deck in Robinson Crusoe. (Ignacy Trzewiczek mentioned this recently on his blog)

Deck building is not the core of Robinson Crusoe but it is one of the game's mechanics.
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I consider a tableau similar to a pool of resources.

Deck-building, to my mind, is a mechanism of choosing how your personal strategy works by acquiring specific options. In much the same way, you choose what to add to a tableau to affect how your strategy works.

I see this mechanism category as a broad classification that attempts to capture the idea of player choice affecting how your strategy works; use a deck to add cards to your deck to fuel a winning strategy, use a deck to add cards to a tableau to fuel a winning strategy.

Hastily written, I hope it's clear enough. Thanks


Edit: I reread what I wrote and it's garbage.
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ad2017 wrote:
I consider a tableau similar to a pool of resources.

Deck-building, to my mind, is a mechanism of choosing how your personal strategy works by acquiring specific options. In much the same way, you choose what to add to a tableau to affect how your strategy works.

I see this mechanism category as a broad classification that attempts to capture the idea of player choice affecting how your strategy works; use a deck to add cards to your deck to fuel a winning strategy, use a deck to add cards to a tableau to fuel a winning strategy.

Hastily written, I hope it's clear enough. Thanks

Not at all clear to me, sorry... :/

To me, "player choice affecting how your strategy works" seems to describe every nontrivial game.

"Deckbuilding" is something much more specific than a pool of resources which you can add to and use. Otherwise e.g. every strategic-level wargame in which you can buy new units is a "deckbuilder".
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Kevin Flickner
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ZuggyG wrote:

I havent played the following but can someone confirm or deny if they are deck/pool builders:

-Civilisation 2010
-Lewis and Clark
-Robinson Crusoe: Adventures on the Cursed Island
-Food Chain Magnate


I'm not familiar with the others but Lewis and Clark has "hand-building" with cards that are either in play or in your hand, but you can add to and subtract from your deck of cards as well, so I consider it to be part of the deck/pool builders family.
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drbobjack wrote:
I submitted a correction to Splendor -I think it's clearly not a deck/poolbuilder. While I've never played Roll for the Galaxy, from what I've read about it you have a pool of dice that gets rolled. It's not exactly the same as Orleans/Dominion/etc, but I'd say it's close enough to fit in the category.

If you see other games that you think are categorized incorrectly, you can submit a correction using the pencil icon in the game's category box.
But the description quoted above mentions nothing about the pool/deck having to be randomly accessed:
Quote:
Deck / Pool Building is a mechanism in which players start the game with a pre-determined set of cards / player pieces and add and change those pieces over the course of the game. Many deck-building games provide the players with a currency that they use to "buy" new items that are integrated into the deck or pool. These new resources generally expand the capabilities of the player and allow the player to build an "engine" to drive their future plays in the course of the game.

This mechanism describes something that happens in play during the game as a function of the game, not customization of the game from a body of cards prior to play.
Splendor has all players starting with a predetermined set of player pieces (none) and they add to them (buying gems) with the in-between step of accumulating currency (gem tokens) and building an engine (accumulating more and more gems)

If anything the description needs to be changed first. Is there a way to suggest that? Other than posting in this thread obviously.
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rubberchicken wrote:
ZuggyG wrote:


I havent played the following but can someone confirm or deny if they are deck/pool builders:

-Robinson Crusoe: Adventures on the Cursed Island


The designer of Robinson Crusoe considers that the deck building mechanic from Dominion inspired the mechanic of adding bad cards to the event deck in Robinson Crusoe. (Ignacy Trzewiczek mentioned this recently on his blog)

Deck building is not the core of Robinson Crusoe but it is one of the game's mechanics.
Just because it inspired the mechanism doesn't mean that it is the mechanism or has that mechanism.
Adding cards to a deck does not make something a deck builder.
The primary concern of adding cards to decks in Robinson Crusoe is the opportunity cost of adding or avoiding said cards. The primary concern of adding cards/tokens to a deck/pool builder is the effect on composition of the deck/pool from which players will draw resources from in a turn.

I would argue that something like the following is a more accurate definition (though probably could be further specified/clarified):
me wrote:
Deck / Pool Building is a mechanism in which players start the game with a pre-determined set of resources (the deck or pool in question) and add, remove, and/or change those pieces over the course of the game. At the start of any given turn, players have access to a discrete* sized subset of those resources (an initial "hand"). In many deck-building games the resources that make up the deck/pool provide the players either directly or indirectly with a currency that they may use to "buy" changes to the deck or pool (add, remove, or modify existing resources). The alterations to the pool generally modify the expected return on resources from any given turn's initial "hand" of the player and allow the player to build an "engine" to drive their future plays in the course of the game.

This mechanism describes something that happens in play during the game as a function of the game, not customization of the game from a body of cards prior to play.

*The meaning of discrete here is meant to be the general definition of discrete (as opposed to the mathematics definition) of well defined and individually recognizable in size. Specifically:
The size on an "initial hand" subset is not directly determined by any outside reference (such as the size of the complete set/entire deck/entire pool) nor any effective equivalent; i.e., no taking all/half/two resources less than the entirety of your deck/pool into hand.
This size of this subset ("initial hand") is a known value (almost invariably a constant, e.g. 5, and almost invariably strictly less than starting deck size), possibly modified by various in-game actions and effects.

If some one has a better word than discrete that means the same thing that I am attempting to convey here, that might be helpful.

Robinson Crusoe just has players shuffle in cards to a stack, that's not deck building.

Lewis & Clark is Hand Management similar to Concordia, i.e., not deck building.

It's been too long since I played Sid Meier's Civilization: The Board Game to recall exactly how the (much maligned) armies/combat system worked there - I think it's just Hand Management.

I haven't been able to get in a game of Food Chain Magnate yet.
 
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Ze_German_Guy wrote:
But the description quoted above mentions nothing about the pool/deck having to be randomly accessed
Nor should it; most games of Aeon's End will have 0 shuffling of player decks, but it is decidedly a deck builder.

The part that is important about having a deck or pool is that you only have a discrete subset of that pool for an initial hand on any given turn.
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tuckerotl wrote:
Ze_German_Guy wrote:
But the description quoted above mentions nothing about the pool/deck having to be randomly accessed
Nor should it; most games of Aeon's End will have 0 shuffling of player decks, but it is decidedly a deck builder.

The part that is important about having a deck or pool is that you only have a discrete subset of that pool for an initial hand on any given turn.
Good point, but in some cases that will of course not be true (e.g. Ascension deck being trimmed to <6 cards, all dice in the cup in Roll for the Galaxy) but your description above looks better than the current one.
I'd suggest changing the following: "At the start of any given turn, players have access to a discrete* sized subset of those resources" to "At the start of any given turn players will generally have access to a subset of those resources" to acknowledged the edge cases and get rid of the whole "discrete" definition issue.
 
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Ze_German_Guy wrote:
tuckerotl wrote:
Ze_German_Guy wrote:
But the description quoted above mentions nothing about the pool/deck having to be randomly accessed
Nor should it; most games of Aeon's End will have 0 shuffling of player decks, but it is decidedly a deck builder.

The part that is important about having a deck or pool is that you only have a discrete subset of that pool for an initial hand on any given turn.
Good point, but in some cases that will of course not be true (e.g. Ascension deck being trimmed to <6 cards, all dice in the cup in Roll for the Galaxy)
Actually it is still true even in those cases. A discrete sized subset is not necessarily a proper subset, so the set counts as a subset of itself.
The point about about the size of the subset being discrete is that in the case of Ascension you draw your whole deck not because you played a card/activated an ability/triggered part of the rules that lets you draw all your cards regardless of how many there are, but because the size of your deck happens to now be (through player choices earlier in the game) less than or equal to the discrete size of a player's initial hand size in that game.
Ze_German_Guy wrote:
but your description above looks better than the current one.
I'd suggest changing the following: "At the start of any given turn, players have access to a discrete* sized subset of those resources" to "At the start of any given turn players will generally have access to a subset of those resources" to acknowledged the edge cases and get rid of the whole "discrete" definition issue.
This doesn't work as this definition includes most, if not all, Tableau Building games, and especially Engine Building Tableau Building games.
 
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tuckerotl wrote:
So you propose to separate along the lines of
Pool/deck builder -> you only sometimes have access to your entire deck/pool
Tableau builder -> you always have access to your entire tableau?
 
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Ze_German_Guy wrote:
tuckerotl wrote:
So you propose to separate along the lines of
Pool/deck builder -> you only sometimes have access to your entire deck/pool
Pool/Deck Builder -> having access to your entire deck is neither implicitly allowed nor explicitly denied, but rather a function of the interaction between restrictions on size of initial hand and entirely separate restrictions on the size of your entire Pool/Deck. Such restrictions on either size may be implicit through other game rules - any functionally equivalent system counts.
Ze_German_Guy wrote:
Tableau builder -> you always have access to your entire tableau?
Access to items in a Tableau are restricted based on the action(s) taken in a previous turn/previous turns. Any restrictions on the maximum number of items in a tableau a player will have access to next turn are relative to the total number of items in the tableau (if N = total number of items in a tableau, N, N-3, N-X for some other variable of play X, N/2, etc. would all be valid options). Again any functionally equivalent system counts.
 
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Joshua Kuhlmann
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Ze_German_Guy wrote:
drbobjack wrote:
I submitted a correction to Splendor -I think it's clearly not a deck/poolbuilder. While I've never played Roll for the Galaxy, from what I've read about it you have a pool of dice that gets rolled. It's not exactly the same as Orleans/Dominion/etc, but I'd say it's close enough to fit in the category.

If you see other games that you think are categorized incorrectly, you can submit a correction using the pencil icon in the game's category box.
But the description quoted above mentions nothing about the pool/deck having to be randomly accessed:
Quote:
Deck / Pool Building is a mechanism in which players start the game with a pre-determined set of cards / player pieces and add and change those pieces over the course of the game. Many deck-building games provide the players with a currency that they use to "buy" new items that are integrated into the deck or pool. These new resources generally expand the capabilities of the player and allow the player to build an "engine" to drive their future plays in the course of the game.

This mechanism describes something that happens in play during the game as a function of the game, not customization of the game from a body of cards prior to play.
Splendor has all players starting with a predetermined set of player pieces (none) and they add to them (buying gems) with the in-between step of accumulating currency (gem tokens) and building an engine (accumulating more and more gems)

If anything the description needs to be changed first. Is there a way to suggest that? Other than posting in this thread obviously.


I think you're correct that the description is a little vague, but I think pool/deck has an implicit notion of discrete subsets. It doesn't necessarily matter if these are randomly accessed (Dominion, Puzzle Strike, Ascension) or accessed in some sort of logical order or by choice (Concordia, Aeon's End, Time of Crisis).

You can edit the description by just clicking the edit button on the mechanic description page.

(The correction was approved and Splendor is no longer a deck/poolbuilder, in case anyone was wondering.)
 
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