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Subject: So, how's that Brexit thing going? rss

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Bill Cook
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https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5691179/brexit-northern-irelan...

Personally, I'm pretty sure that no matter how hard the Brexiteers wish for it, the Irland border issue isn't going away.
 
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Pontifex Maximus
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EMBison wrote:
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5691179/brexit-northern-irelan...

Personally, I'm pretty sure that no matter how hard the Brexiteers wish for it, the Irland border issue isn't going away.


The Sun is a Rupert Murdoch publication so there is that right wing spin to be aware of when reading it.

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Bill Cook
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Kumitedad wrote:
EMBison wrote:
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5691179/brexit-northern-irelan...

Personally, I'm pretty sure that no matter how hard the Brexiteers wish for it, the Irland border issue isn't going away.


The Sun is a Rupert Murdoch publication so their is that right wing spin to be aware of when reading it.



That's why I picked the Sun. In one thing when, say, the Guardian points out what a clusterfuck Brexit is going to be. Much more fun when it's in the Sun. Not sure if the typical Sun reader will get to see it, as it's buried behind endless stories about (/checks) snow, sex and showbiz.
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Rachel Simmons
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EMBison wrote:
Personally, I'm pretty sure that no matter how hard the Brexiteers wish for it, the Irland border issue isn't going away.

The issue seems simple to solve: the re-conqest of Ireland. No Republic of Ireland, no Ireland border. No border, no problem. Easy-peasy.
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Mac Mcleod
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bowen wrote:
EMBison wrote:
Personally, I'm pretty sure that no matter how hard the Brexiteers wish for it, the Irland border issue isn't going away.

The issue seems simple to solve: the re-conqest of Ireland. No Republic of Ireland, no Ireland border. No border, no problem. Easy-peasy.


or high explosives. Lots and lots of high explosives.
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John Robinson
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Its an absolute clusterfuck, we have the leaders of the leave campaign like Boris and Gove sniping at the Prime Minister and sending her letters which they leak themselves to make it seem that they are still the heroes of the people who voted Leave. We cannot stop the EU or Ireland impose a hard border, which is a bit strange with the leavers wanting a hard border across the channel to stop migrants, they could just travel on to Ireland and then enter through the border to the North.

They are still having the delusion that we can tell the other 27 members of the EU what to do, in the same way that Trump tries to do with NAAFTA and other deals. The rest of the EU doesnt need us as much as we need them and they dont seem to understand this. They have also come out aginst staying in the customs union and free movement which is funny becuase they and Farage in the lead up the vote were saying we could be like Norway which is a member of both.

I would love to see the Brexiteers "dream team" of Boris, Rees-Mogg and Gove take over as PM and the main Govt positions as then they have nowhere to go, the responsibility would lay squarly with them, but Boris has run away from that his entire political life.
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Andy Leighton
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jon7167 wrote:
Its an absolute clusterfuck, we have the leaders of the leave campaign like Boris and Gove sniping at the Prime Minister and sending her letters which they leak themselves to make it seem that they are still the heroes of the people who voted Leave. We cannot stop the EU or Ireland impose a hard border, which is a bit strange with the leavers wanting a hard border across the channel to stop migrants, they could just travel on to Ireland and then enter through the border to the North.


Yes, they talk about technological means of enforcing the border - which is all well and good for large companies and artics and fuel tankers going back and forth. But how will that work for a man in a van - either someone who does an odd job the other side of the border or someone who chooses to unofficially import/export goods? It also does nothing to deal with movement of people - which is OK for British and Irish citizens, there is the Common Travel Area but how do you control movement of others?
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Mutton Chops
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We've also had several major companies go into administration blaming the weak pound and/or low consumer confidence (i.e. people avoiding discretionary spending while the chaos of how Brexit will be achieved is sorted out), and it looks like more are on the way. Cameron should be prosecuted for his rank incompetence. The people still supporting Brexit at this point are baby-boomers without a dog in the economic race, racists, and idiots (there is a lot of overlap in that Venn diagram).
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Adrian Hague
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maxo-texas wrote:
bowen wrote:
EMBison wrote:
Personally, I'm pretty sure that no matter how hard the Brexiteers wish for it, the Irland border issue isn't going away.

The issue seems simple to solve: the re-conqest of Ireland. No Republic of Ireland, no Ireland border. No border, no problem. Easy-peasy.


or high explosives. Lots and lots of high explosives.


Poor taste Mac shake
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Adrian Hague
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One the one hand, I can understand the decision. The British people were polled, and we have to honour the result.

What grinds my gears is that the Conservative we're so fucking woefully unprepared for the result. Franky, it's embarrassing (to say the least).
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Andy Leighton
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AdrianPHague wrote:
One the one hand, I can understand the decision. The British people were polled, and we have to honour the result.


Why? The referendum was an advisory one not a binding one. It seems pretty reasonable to me to say we looked seriously at the options, and can't find one that won't do immense damage to the country. So we are going to ask again - "do you really want us to jump off that cliff?"

However a large part of the problem is that there is a sizable group of people (in the Tory party) who want to jump off the cliff. They either ignore that the cliff is there, or think there is a bouncy castle at the bottom to break the fall, or have a parachute (loads of money and are looking forwards to making more due to disaster capitalism), or just plain deluded.
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Adrian Hague
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andyl wrote:
AdrianPHague wrote:
One the one hand, I can understand the decision. The British people were polled, and we have to honour the result.


Why? The referendum was an advisory one not a binding one.

This I understand, and I agree, but I can't help thinking I wouldn't be supporting this point had the result been different, if I were to be brutally honest with myself.
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Andy Leighton
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AdrianPHague wrote:
andyl wrote:
AdrianPHague wrote:
One the one hand, I can understand the decision. The British people were polled, and we have to honour the result.


Why? The referendum was an advisory one not a binding one.

This I understand, and I agree, but I can't help thinking I wouldn't be supporting this point had the result been different, if I were to be brutally honest with myself.


Yep but if the result was different we wouldn't be in jumping-off-cliffs territory in the first place.
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Rob Dales
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I think that about sums it up.
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John Robinson
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andyl wrote:
AdrianPHague wrote:
One the one hand, I can understand the decision. The British people were polled, and we have to honour the result.


Why? The referendum was an advisory one not a binding one. It seems pretty reasonable to me to say we looked seriously at the options, and can't find one that won't do immense damage to the country. So we are going to ask again - "do you really want us to jump off that cliff?"

However a large part of the problem is that there is a sizable group of people (in the Tory party) who want to jump off the cliff. They either ignore that the cliff is there, or think there is a bouncy castle at the bottom to break the fall, or have a parachute (loads of money and are looking forwards to making more due to disaster capitalism), or just plain deluded.


Yes but in the words of nearly every brexiteer, "we should all come together and support brexit"

Whatever the hell that means, as if the power of good thoughts will make a difference
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AdrianPHague wrote:
andyl wrote:
AdrianPHague wrote:
One the one hand, I can understand the decision. The British people were polled, and we have to honour the result.


Why? The referendum was an advisory one not a binding one.

This I understand, and I agree, but I can't help thinking I wouldn't be supporting this point had the result been different, if I were to be brutally honest with myself.


Democratic decisions can be overturned by other democratic decisions. We do change governments after all. The idea that the referendum's result is set in stone for all time regardless of how the mood of the country develops is hardly democratic itself.
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Jamie Hankins
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AdrianPHague wrote:
andyl wrote:
AdrianPHague wrote:
One the one hand, I can understand the decision. The British people were polled, and we have to honour the result.


Why? The referendum was an advisory one not a binding one.

This I understand, and I agree, but I can't help thinking I wouldn't be supporting this point had the result been different, if I were to be brutally honest with myself.


I think I would have.

Prior to the result (when it looked like Remain was going to secure a narrow win), Farage made the following remark: "In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the Remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it."

I don't think he was wrong. If the referendum revealed that 48% of voters wanted to leave the EU, then clearly UKIP would still have a substantial role to play in politics; they only need to convince another 3% and majority opinion would be in favour of leaving the EU.

I admit that I imagined even a narrow win for Remain would be the beginning of the end for UKIP; pro-EU sentiment amongst voters would only grow as young voters come of age and old voters die off, but it would only be the beginning of the end. Should my prediction be wrong and anti-EU sentiment become popular enough to win future referendum against EU membership, then the issue would have to be (eventually) revisited.

Democracy is not something we do once and then walk away from; it's a constant process in which popular opinion can change drastically and suddenly. If there is reason to believe that a referendum result no longer reflects majority opinion, then the topic of that referendum needs to be revisited.

I'm not wholly sold on the idea of a new referendum because I'm not convinced that people would vote to reject Brexit in a new referendum... but it's at least plausible that they might. Post-referendum polling does seem to show some movement in popular opinion. If that continues to the point where polling shows a more reliable lead for pro-EU sentiment, then I would fully back a second referendum.
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jon7167 wrote:
andyl wrote:
AdrianPHague wrote:
One the one hand, I can understand the decision. The British people were polled, and we have to honour the result.


Why? The referendum was an advisory one not a binding one. It seems pretty reasonable to me to say we looked seriously at the options, and can't find one that won't do immense damage to the country. So we are going to ask again - "do you really want us to jump off that cliff?"

However a large part of the problem is that there is a sizable group of people (in the Tory party) who want to jump off the cliff. They either ignore that the cliff is there, or think there is a bouncy castle at the bottom to break the fall, or have a parachute (loads of money and are looking forwards to making more due to disaster capitalism), or just plain deluded.


Yes but in the words of nearly every brexiteer, "we should all come together and support brexit"

Whatever the hell that means, as if the power of good thoughts will make a difference


What it means is "Stop pointing out that it's clear this is going to be an economic disaster, based on the early indicators even before we've actually got to the point of the rules of trade with the EU being changed, as it upsets me, just pretend that it'll be all right, and anyway "taking back control", right?".
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Christopher Dearlove
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mutton_chops wrote:
We've also had several major companies go into administration blaming the weak pound and/or low consumer confidence (i.e. people avoiding discretionary spending while the chaos of how Brexit will be achieved is sorted out), and it looks like more are on the way. Cameron should be prosecuted for his rank incompetence. The people still supporting Brexit at this point are baby-boomers without a dog in the economic race, racists, and idiots (there is a lot of overlap in that Venn diagram).


And people with a lot of money who expect to be able to clean up after a crash. And other narrow selfish interests (such as being paid by people in the previous group).
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mutton_chops wrote:
jon7167 wrote:
andyl wrote:
AdrianPHague wrote:
One the one hand, I can understand the decision. The British people were polled, and we have to honour the result.


Why? The referendum was an advisory one not a binding one. It seems pretty reasonable to me to say we looked seriously at the options, and can't find one that won't do immense damage to the country. So we are going to ask again - "do you really want us to jump off that cliff?"

However a large part of the problem is that there is a sizable group of people (in the Tory party) who want to jump off the cliff. They either ignore that the cliff is there, or think there is a bouncy castle at the bottom to break the fall, or have a parachute (loads of money and are looking forwards to making more due to disaster capitalism), or just plain deluded.


Yes but in the words of nearly every brexiteer, "we should all come together and support brexit"

Whatever the hell that means, as if the power of good thoughts will make a difference


What it means is "Stop pointing out that it's clear this is going to be an economic disaster, based on the early indicators even before we've actually got to the point of the rules of trade with the EU being changed, as it upsets me, just pretend that it'll be all right, and anyway "taking back control", right?".


Blue passports is the most sarcastic comment. Esepeciallyvwe always could have had them. There's a good cartoon out there, but I don't have a link.
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Yes but in the words of nearly every brexiteer, "we should all come together and support brexit"

Whatever the hell that means, as if the power of good thoughts will make a difference


Thoughts and prayers my friend thoughts and prayers.
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AdrianPHague wrote:
andyl wrote:
AdrianPHague wrote:
One the one hand, I can understand the decision. The British people were polled, and we have to honour the result.


Why? The referendum was an advisory one not a binding one.

This I understand, and I agree, but I can't help thinking I wouldn't be supporting this point had the result been different, if I were to be brutally honest with myself.


Do you think if it had failed it wouldn't keep coming up again?
 
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Christopher Dearlove
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lfisher wrote:
AdrianPHague wrote:
andyl wrote:
AdrianPHague wrote:
One the one hand, I can understand the decision. The British people were polled, and we have to honour the result.


Why? The referendum was an advisory one not a binding one.

This I understand, and I agree, but I can't help thinking I wouldn't be supporting this point had the result been different, if I were to be brutally honest with myself.


Do you think if it had failed it wouldn't keep coming up again?


There are some people who wouldn't have given up if the vote had been 99-1 either way. But the larger the vote difference, the longer before trying again. At 52-48 while some on the 48 side would give up, others wouldn't. In the case of a Brexit loss, those pushing it (as opposed to supporting it) were mostly ideologues or those out for a killing, and those people don't give up. In the current situation the "remain or as close to remain as possible" side are largely driven by the clusterfuck situation.
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Andy Holt
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It is clear that the hard Brexiteers don't realise just how much smuggling will take place between NI and Eire unless there is a customs union there.
Spoiler (click to reveal)
The Irish have generations of experience in how to bypass a "hard" frontier and the technology skills to bypass the sort of soft frontier that Teresa May seems to suggest


It's also clear that most of them don't realise why they should care.
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Hint: who will be the biggest smugglers? The paramilitaries.
And at least one side (if not both the UK and the EU) will lose significant tax income.
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David Dearlove
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Dearlove wrote:
mutton_chops wrote:
jon7167 wrote:
andyl wrote:
AdrianPHague wrote:
One the one hand, I can understand the decision. The British people were polled, and we have to honour the result.


Why? The referendum was an advisory one not a binding one. It seems pretty reasonable to me to say we looked seriously at the options, and can't find one that won't do immense damage to the country. So we are going to ask again - "do you really want us to jump off that cliff?"

However a large part of the problem is that there is a sizable group of people (in the Tory party) who want to jump off the cliff. They either ignore that the cliff is there, or think there is a bouncy castle at the bottom to break the fall, or have a parachute (loads of money and are looking forwards to making more due to disaster capitalism), or just plain deluded.


Yes but in the words of nearly every brexiteer, "we should all come together and support brexit"

Whatever the hell that means, as if the power of good thoughts will make a difference


What it means is "Stop pointing out that it's clear this is going to be an economic disaster, based on the early indicators even before we've actually got to the point of the rules of trade with the EU being changed, as it upsets me, just pretend that it'll be all right, and anyway "taking back control", right?".


Blue passports is the most sarcastic comment. Esepeciallyvwe always could have had them. There's a good cartoon out there, but I don't have a link.

People can't even remember what colour blue it was. It was so dark it was practically black. The mockup was bright blue because the focus group wanted blue. One of the EU nations (Slovenia?)kept their colour anyway with no problem.
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