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Subject: Purple die/negative effects rss

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Mark Turner
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When using a purple die, you don’t get a special effect or bonus.

However, what of an situation when you: 'Lose a stuffing for each non-green die used to move’?

Would a purple act as a green to save your stuffing?
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Rich Bouselli
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MrMT wrote:
When using a purple die, you don’t get a special effect or bonus.

However, what of an situation when 'Lose a stuffing for each non-green die used to move.’

Would a purple acting as a green save your stuffing?


I play that way. I treat a purple as a green.
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Lance Ford
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TheRubexCube wrote:
MrMT wrote:
When using a purple die, you don’t get a special effect or bonus.

However, what of an situation when 'Lose a stuffing for each non-green die used to move.’

Would a purple acting as a green save your stuffing?


I play that way. I treat a purple as a green.


I'm actually pretty sure I heard or read that it is fine to use it as a green die in that situation.
It counts as whatever color you want it to... it just doesn't "become" that color. So any bonus that says it applies to a green die, won't apply to a purple die acting as green. But it doesn't go the other way around.
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Lance Ford
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Mnty4rd wrote:

I'm actually pretty sure I heard or read that it is fine to use it as a green die in that situation.
It counts as whatever color you want it to... it just doesn't "become" that color. So any bonus that says it applies to a green die, won't apply to a purple die acting as green. But it doesn't go the other way around.


Yeah, just checked the rule book, and the Examples they give on page 11 about using purple dice are:
You may use a purple die in place of:
a red die when making a melee attack
a green die to move across a green line
a yellow die to search
a blue die when making a blue skill test

You may NOT:

use Lumpy's ability to re-roll purple dice (as it can only re-roll blue dice).
add +1 to purple dice when using them to attack with the Rubber Bands item (as it adds +1 only to green dice)

So that (to me anyway) sounds like you can use it to avoid a negative like taking damage if you don't use green to move.. it even gives the example of moving over green lines, which is a very similar thing. It just can't benefit from bonuses for other colors.

[Edited to add buttons ]
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Mike Bourgeois
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MrMT wrote:
When using a purple die, you don’t get a special effect or bonus.

However, what of an situation when 'Lose a stuffing for each non-green die used to move.’

Would a purple act as a green save your stuffing?


I don't think you can use the purple die in this situation. It specifically states "non-green" and purple is NOT green. In generalized moving... where you just want to get from point a to b it's fine... but this is specific and I really think that it's only green dice you can use.
 
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Lance Ford
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mbourgeois wrote:
MrMT wrote:
When using a purple die, you don’t get a special effect or bonus.

However, what of an situation when 'Lose a stuffing for each non-green die used to move.’

Would a purple act as a green save your stuffing?


I don't think you can use the purple die in this situation. It specifically states "non-green" and purple is NOT green. In generalized moving... where you just want to get from point a to b it's fine... but this is specific and I really think that it's only green dice you can use.
I don't agree. It (the rule book, pg. 11) says you can use a purple die in place of a green one for moving across green lines, so why not a purple one in place of a green one for moving on the junk pile without taking damage?

It acts like a green, so it can do whatever a green does, but a bonus that applies to green doesn't apply to it... (because ultimately, it's not a green.)

[Edit] for clarification (it = the rule book)
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Mike Bourgeois
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@Lance...

Normally I wouldn't argue that using a wild card die to take the place of an accuracy die would be a debatable thing. But in this case... by what he's referring to... I think it does mean you must use a green die and not another color. This is second page top of the mountain stuff where one miss step will cause you endless pain... this isn't I need to walk from one simple point to another. Otherwise why would they specify green... I mean there isn't a barrier to cross... this is a specific hazard that will harm or potentially kill you if you're rash in your actions.

End of it is you play it how you want it... if you want to sub a purple in then go ahead. But it takes a tense situation and makes it nothing. Only way I'd play that in my game is if you allowed purple to sub but still took the damage... after all you don't get bonuses when you sub in purple for various dice as per the rules.
 
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Mark Turner
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mbourgeois wrote:
@Lance...

End of it is you play it how you want it...


Want to play it as intended!

To me it’s not clear, as your thinking, and the analogy with the green line situation, both have merits.

The phrase 'non-green' in the gamebook does sway me in your direction, however.

This was what made me post here. At first I figured you could substitute, but the specificity of that phrase made me think again.

I also suspect this may be a golden rule situation: the rules in the book trump those in the rulebook?
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Patrik Severinsson
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I think the movement example on pg 11 can be slightly misleading. The rule on pg 9 is clearer.
Rule book wrote:
A stuffy can only be moved across a solid colored line if you use that color of die and/or purple dice to move.
So a purple die isn't used as a green die when crossing a green line, it just has the ability to cross any colored line.
I'd say you can't use a purple die to avoid negative effects caused by moving with a non-green die, since it doesn't count as green.
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Lance Ford
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mbourgeois wrote:
@Lance...

Normally I wouldn't argue that using a wild card die to take the place of an accuracy die would be a debatable thing. But in this case... by what he's referring to... I think it does mean you must use a green die and not another color. This is second page top of the mountain stuff where one miss step will cause you endless pain... this isn't I need to walk from one simple point to another. Otherwise why would they specify green... I mean there isn't a barrier to cross... this is a specific hazard that will harm or potentially kill you if you're rash in your actions.

End of it is you play it how you want it... if you want to sub a purple in then go ahead. But it takes a tense situation and makes it nothing. Only way I'd play that in my game is if you allowed purple to sub but still took the damage... after all you don't get bonuses when you sub in purple for various dice as per the rules.
Yeah, I get what you are saying... the "bonus" in this situation is that you avoid getting damaged.

I guess the way I look at it is that it wasn't a tense situation, so much as it was a puzzle of sorts. How do I make use of the dice I drew this round? If there were any green or purple, you could move freely... but if not, then you had to decide if moving was worth taking the damage, or should you search, encourage, or reserve.. etc.. instead.

Helikoputtrik wrote:
I think the movement example on pg 11 can be slightly misleading. The rule on pg 9 is clearer.
Rule book wrote:
A stuffy can only be moved across a solid colored line if you use that color of die and/or purple dice to move.
So a purple die isn't used as a green die when crossing a green line, it just has the ability to cross any colored line.
I'd say you can't use a purple die to avoid negative effects caused by moving with a non-green die, since it doesn't count as green.
And I would say you are doing exactly that when you use a purple die to cross a colored line.. using a purple die to avoid the negative effect of not being able to cross the line without the die of it's color.

But yeah... as Mike said, the end of it is, play how you want. I can totally see what you guys are talking about, but my interpretation makes more sense to me. (I know... weird, right? )
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Patrik Severinsson
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Mnty4rd wrote:
Helikoputtrik wrote:
I think the movement example on pg 11 can be slightly misleading. The rule on pg 9 is clearer.
Rule book wrote:
A stuffy can only be moved across a solid colored line if you use that color of die and/or purple dice to move.
So a purple die isn't used as a green die when crossing a green line, it just has the ability to cross any colored line.
I'd say you can't use a purple die to avoid negative effects caused by moving with a non-green die, since it doesn't count as green.
And I would say you are doing exactly that when you use a purple die to cross a colored line.. using a purple die to avoid the negative effect of not being able to cross the line without the die of it's color.
Yes, but a purple die can be used to cross a green line because being able to cross any colored line is an ability of purple dice, not because the purple die counts as green when moving. It's still purple when used to cross a green line. So why would it not be purple when used to cross "hazardous" squares, especially when the rules state:
Quote:
Note: A purple die is used ‘in place’ of another colored die.
The purple die does not ‘become’ the other color.

Purple dice just circumvent the requirements for which colored dice can be used, not the effects of using (or not using) specific colored dice.
 
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Chris Witt
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I think that this rule is too vague. Likely when it was written, they thought it was clear, but then BGG got ahold of it, and the holes became evident.

It's a bit of a paradox to say that purple can be used as any other color, but doesn't "become" that color (which was Jerry Hawthorne's clarification). If it doesn't "become" that color, then it violates that it can be used for actions requiring a certain color.

You can't just say "it doesn't get any bonuses of the color" because "bonus" is way too vague. Literally anything it allows you to do could be considered a "bonus".

I think we need a simple rule of thumb. I think that the intent was that a purple die can be used to DO anything that any other color would allow you to DO, but it simply doesn't benefit from any additions to die rolls, such as +1.

Alternatively, we could have someone go through the game and list out every possible use of dice where this would be a question, and hope that we can get a call from Jerry on every single one of them.
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Lance Ford
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RebelScum wrote:
I think that this rule is too vague. Likely when it was written, they thought it was clear, but then BGG got ahold of it, and the holes became evident.

It's a bit of a paradox to say that purple can be used as any other color, but doesn't "become" that color (which was Jerry Hawthorne's clarification). If it doesn't "become" that color, then it violates that it can be used for actions requiring a certain color.

You can't just say "it doesn't get any bonuses of the color" because "bonus" is way too vague. Literally anything it allows you to do could be considered a "bonus".

I think we need a simple rule of thumb. I think that the intent was that a purple die can be used to DO anything that any other color would allow you to DO, but it simply doesn't benefit from any additions to die rolls, such as +1.

That is my interpretation as well.
I would also include abilities that let you re-roll a specific color. Lumpy can roll a purple as a blue, but shouldn't be allowed to re-roll it because it isn't actually a blue die. Piggle, on the other hand, specifically gets to re-roll purple, and therefore, when rolling purple in place of any other color, gets to re-roll that purple die standing in for any other color. (Piggle is just cool like that)

Not being able to use purple in place of any other color die (to do precisely what that other color can do... as a red for a strength check, as a yellow to do a search, as a green to avoid damage when moving on the heap of toys, as any color to cross that color line... etc.) contradicts it's very purpose. But, at the same time, if you have an item that gives +1 to a roll result, I completely understand not wanting to allow purple to also receive the +1... except, you know... an item that gives a +1 to purple, obviously. I know of at least one item that does that. (or it lets you re-roll purple, I can't remember which, and I don't have access to it atm. But the fact that an item exists that gives either a +1 or re-roll to purple, just lends credibility to my interpretation)



To say it yet another way... the benefit of a wildcard die is being able to use it in place of any other color, to do anything they can do. But the downside, or balance, if you will... is that it ISN'T that color, so it can't receive the +1 from an item that affects that different color, or the re-roll abilities that apply to other colors.

But yeah, even after saying that... as RebelScum said, it's just vague enough that I really can't say with any certainty that that was the intention behind the rules as written. (even with Jerry's "clarification" on the subject so far) That's just the interpretation that seems most likely to me.

[Edit: thought of a better word for something]
 
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Mark Turner
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RebelScum wrote:
I think that this rule is too vague. Likely when it was written, they thought it was clear, but then BGG got ahold of it, and the holes became evident.

It's a bit of a paradox to say that purple can be used as any other color, but doesn't "become" that color (which was Jerry Hawthorne's clarification). If it doesn't "become" that color, then it violates that it can be used for actions requiring a certain color.

You can't just say "it doesn't get any bonuses of the color" because "bonus" is way too vague. Literally anything it allows you to do could be considered a "bonus".

I think we need a simple rule of thumb. I think that the intent was that a purple die can be used to DO anything that any other color would allow you to DO, but it simply doesn't benefit from any additions to die rolls, such as +1.

Alternatively, we could have someone go through the game and list out every possible use of dice where this would be a question, and hope that we can get a call from Jerry on every single one of them.


Is travelling over dangerous territory without losing health a bonus, or allowing you to do something?

I suspect it's a bonus, by this definition... as you can still travel either way.

So, back to the original question, when using a purple you lose the stuffing.
 
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Lance Ford
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MrMT wrote:
Is travelling over dangerous territory without losing health a bonus, or allowing you to do something?

I suspect it's a bonus, by this definition... as you can still travel either way.

So, back to the original question, when losing a purple you lose the stuffing.


I think the arguments have been pretty well presented both ways, and I can see the merit in the different interpretations.
At this point, it seems everyone just has to make that determination for themselves... until we get an official ruling on it from Jerry.

 
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Mark Turner
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Mnty4rd wrote:
MrMT wrote:
Is travelling over dangerous territory without losing health a bonus, or allowing you to do something?

I suspect it's a bonus, by this definition... as you can still travel either way.

So, back to the original question, when losing a purple you lose the stuffing.


I think the arguments have been pretty well presented both ways, and I can see the merit in the different interpretations.
At this point, it seems everyone just has to make that determination for themselves... until we get an official ruling on it from Jerry.



Agreed. Just wanted to highlight that even the attempt to summarise the arguments with a crisp rule didn't quite make it.

As you say, it needs a ruling, or else, players can pick and choose their preferred option.

My suggestion: when playing with young kids, let the purple count, but jack up the sense of danger averted by the skin of their teeth.

When playing for more of a challenge, apply the 'this colour and this colour only' stops you from taking the extra damage.
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Ian N
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Late to the party - and I know this is unlikely to sway anyone who's already made up their mind - but I don't think it's particularly unclear in this case.

The base rules are clear that a purple die can be used in place of another colour of die, but does NOT 'become' that colour.
And in this case, the board Special Rule specifically refers to "non-green" dice used to move. So

Was that green die used "to move"? YES.
Is it "non-green"? NO.
- Don't lose any stuffing.

Was that purple die used "to move"? YES.
Is it "non-green"? YES. (There's absolutely no ambiguity or "wiggle room" here - it's always and only ever Purple.)
- Lose a stuffing.

But - on the fly? If anyone had argued, we'd have house-ruled it in favour of either giving the kids an easier time, or the prevailing opinion. Fun over arguments, every time.

(The way I read Purple Dice is:
Anywhere that the Story or Rules ask you to roll Attribute Dice of a particular colour, unless it specifically says otherwise, you can roll Purple as well (or even instead). But that's where it ends. The rules are very clear that the dice stay Purple - you can't claim them as another colour just to get the "best" outcome.)
 
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Cameron Bird
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I understand this may or may not actually follow the letter of the rules depending on your interpretation (until an official ruling), but one could argue that using a purple die to avoid damage follows the spirit of the special rule. It's essentially punishing you for a lack of agility when making your way down the toy pile if you use a non-green die, as if you twisted your ankle or something. Naturally, green dice avoid this as they are the representation of agility in the game. Purple dice count towards agility (green) skill tests, so it could be argued that it follows the spirit of using agility to get down the pile of toys.
 
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Lance Ford
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The definition of bonus is:
·an amount of money added to wages on a seasonal basis, especially as a reward for good performance.
·something welcome and often unexpected that accompanies and enhances something that is itself good.

The antonym of bonus is penalty:
·a punishment imposed for breaking a law, rule, or contract.
·a disadvantage or unpleasant experience suffered as the result of an action or circumstance.

A bonus is an enhancement of something good, not the avoidance of something bad.

You don't hear anyone say "I walked to the store today, and as a bonus, I didn't break my leg on the way"

I'm sticking with my arguement that avoiding damage is not a bonus. It is avoiding a penalty... in this case the penalty for breaking the rule of not using a green die to move. But since purple can be used in place of green, it can be used to avoid that penalty.

The bonus that purple can't receive is things like the +1 to red. That +1 is "something welcome and often unexpected that accompanies and enhances something that is itself good".
 
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