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Subject: Moon clan at a disadvantage? rss

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Sean K
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With the recent clarification in faq 2.0, it seems like Moon clan can really get screwed in the spring season. If anybody plays a recruit before marshal gets played, Moon clan can't do anything, since they already have 2 figures in their starting province. It's even possible that BOTH recruits could get played before a marshal, especially at higher player counts, since Moon clan always goes last. When we played, we at least let the Moon clan summon a shinto, since faq 2.0 hadn't come out yet, but that was incorrect.
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Michael R

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raddoc wrote:
With the recent clarification in faq 2.0, it seems like Moon clan can really get screwed in the spring season. If anybody plays a recruit before marshal gets played, Moon clan can't do anything, since they already have 2 figures in their starting province. It's even possible that BOTH recruits could get played before a marshal, especially at higher player counts, since Moon clan always goes last. When we played, we at least let the Moon clan summon a shinto, since faq 2.0 hadn't come out yet, but that was incorrect.


Yes, they certainly are at a slight disadvantage in Spring, but I've seen them catch up very well in the 3/3 games I've played since FAQ 2.0 was released. If I were to play Moon again, it would certainly be on top of my list of priorities in Spring to get an ally with high honor.
 
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SherM Tan
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tricil wrote:
raddoc wrote:
With the recent clarification in faq 2.0, it seems like Moon clan can really get screwed in the spring season. If anybody plays a recruit before marshal gets played, Moon clan can't do anything, since they already have 2 figures in their starting province. It's even possible that BOTH recruits could get played before a marshal, especially at higher player counts, since Moon clan always goes last. When we played, we at least let the Moon clan summon a shinto, since faq 2.0 hadn't come out yet, but that was incorrect.


Yes, they certainly are at a slight disadvantage in Spring, but I've seen them catch up very well in the 3/3 games I've played since FAQ 2.0 was released. If I were to play Moon again, it would certainly be on top of my list of priorities in Spring to get an ally with high honor.


Can you help to share how they managed to catch up with the disadvantages?
While I have not tried Moon Clan, I am very interested in how the latest FAQ 2.0 might limit their game play strategies even more now
 
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Michael R

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elansargelmir wrote:

Can you help to share how they managed to catch up with the disadvantages?


Mostly by winning battles, but also by having the most force in important provinces during harvests and in crucial shrines during the kami phase.

Quote:
While I have not tried Moon Clan, I am very interested in how the latest FAQ 2.0 might limit their game play strategies even more now


The FAQ certainly limits what they can do during the first spring mandates, but I don't think that the rule significantly restricts their game play strategies afterwards. I would be curious to hear whether others have had similar or contradictory experiences.
 
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Brian D
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Moon is also poised to pick a Kami shrine and OWN it. If they put two shinto in any shrine, any other clan needs all of their Shinto, PLUS Komainu, PLUS a higher honor in order to take it from Moon clan. If Fujin is out, Moon should claim his shrine early and they'll have extra moves to avoid being bottled up. If Raijin is out, they can Summon extra bushi without worrying about where their strongholds are.
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Don Sombrero
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Dessic wrote:
Moon is also poised to pick a Kami shrine and OWN it. If they put two shinto in any shrine, any other clan needs all of their Shinto, PLUS Komainu, PLUS a higher honor in order to take it from Moon clan. If Fujin is out, Moon should claim his shrine early and they'll have extra moves to avoid being bottled up. If Raijin is out, they can Summon extra bushi without worrying about where their strongholds are.


Are you sure that their strength applies to Kami shinto as well?
 
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Nicolas Tremblay
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Don Sombrero wrote:
Dessic wrote:
Moon is also poised to pick a Kami shrine and OWN it. If they put two shinto in any shrine, any other clan needs all of their Shinto, PLUS Komainu, PLUS a higher honor in order to take it from Moon clan. If Fujin is out, Moon should claim his shrine early and they'll have extra moves to avoid being bottled up. If Raijin is out, they can Summon extra bushi without worrying about where their strongholds are.


Are you sure that their strength applies to Kami shinto as well?


Their ability applies to ALL FIGURES of theirs. It is not limited to Bushi or anything.

Control of shrines is dictated by Force, just like provinces are.

 
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Dvonn Yinsh
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While each shinto is a 2 Force, they are limited to 2 figures across all 4 shrines.
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Valk _
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raddoc wrote:
With the recent clarification in faq 2.0, it seems like Moon clan can really get screwed in the spring season. If anybody plays a recruit before marshal gets played, Moon clan can't do anything, since they already have 2 figures in their starting province. It's even possible that BOTH recruits could get played before a marshal, especially at higher player counts, since Moon clan always goes last. When we played, we at least let the Moon clan summon a shinto, since faq 2.0 hadn't come out yet, but that was incorrect.


I felt the same way when I heard the news. I thought moon was now almost useless: cant recruit before the first mandate, only 4 gold, and LAST to play. I decided to try them....it was a disastrous first season. 0 victory points, 0 provinces won and that was with a marshal played in the beginning!

Season 2 and 3 I came back and won! However, this was a big part in buying strongholds (got lucky there) and kami unleashed. I feel like with kami unleashed moon is still good due to the ruling but without that expansion moon is too weak.


One thing to keep in mind is negotation. Paying the first player (even a non ally) one gold if they marshal (or promising to pay and then backing out of it) helps a lot. Many clans want to marshal (Turtle and bonsai like to for the strongholds) so as long as the players dont specifically play to screw you over instead of trying to win, 2 recruits before a marshal won't happen that often!
 
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lightb0x copper
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Moon Turtle and Bonsai look like good partners
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Brian D
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candoo wrote:
While each shinto is a 2 Force, they are limited to 2 figures across all 4 shrines.


This is true, but it allows Moon to do two things:

1) They have no ability to buy Komainu; let other clans use their Train mandates and coins on him while you take something better. It will take alot of effort on other clans' part to overcome two Moon shinto on the same shrine anyway.

2) Their third shinto becomes their seventh bushi. If the Mountain set of season cards is being played, they will be able to use Piety (If you win a War Province token with a Shinto, gain Honor and 3 Victory Points) while still spending as many shinto in shrines as they can.

---

Also Moon has access to Fukurokuju, who counts as a Daimyo and a Stronghold. Getting him in the Springtime will give you a mobile stronghold that can't be taken off the map with a Betray action.
 
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Brian D
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raddoc wrote:
If anybody plays a recruit before marshal gets played, Moon clan can't do anything,


What are the odds of this happening on purpose? Playing Recruit before the first Marshall mandate will only get two units on the board for the player who selected it and their ally. The only time it would seem to make sense is in a three player game where Moon clan is unallied. Then Moon us down by two units right away. For most games, I would imagine you'd see Train or Harvest before the first Marshall is played.
 
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Alex Krasny
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You just send Shinto to Kami in this case?
 
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Mr. Octavius
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Dessic wrote:
raddoc wrote:
If anybody plays a recruit before marshal gets played, Moon clan can't do anything,


What are the odds of this happening on purpose? Playing Recruit before the first Marshall mandate will only get two units on the board for the player who selected it and their ally. The only time it would seem to make sense is in a three player game where Moon clan is unallied. Then Moon us down by two units right away. For most games, I would imagine you'd see Train or Harvest before the first Marshall is played.


I could maybe see it if a player wanted the troops and wasn't certain of having a chance at Marshall, (for example, they only get to select 1 mandate that season.)

Also, if Marsall isn't is the top 6 tiles (uncommon but probably not incredibly rare) I could see the 3rd player playing recruit to get Kami bonuses, but in that situation Train for Komainu is probably better.
 
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Mr. Octavius
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VirtualAlex wrote:
You just send Shinto to Kami in this case?


According to the most recent FAQ (2.0) you cannot. Shinto show up in the province first, then climb the mountain to go to the temple. If the province is 'full' by already having 2 figures in it, then there is no room for the shinto to enter the province before climbing the mountain.
 
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Sean K
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VirtualAlex wrote:
You just send Shinto to Kami in this case?


As I said in my initial post, Moon cannot send a shinto to a Kami shrine if recruit is played before marshal. If Moon still has their starting 2 figures in their home province, the Shinto can't be summoned. From FAQ 2.0:

Q: Can the Moon Clan Summon a Shinto into a Province with 2 Moon Clan figures
and immediately send it to Worship? Or Move one of their figures through a
Province that contains 2 Moon Clan figures?
A: No, at no instance can there ever be more than 2 Moon Clan figures in the same Province, even for a moment
 
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Mike Beiter
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raddoc wrote:
VirtualAlex wrote:
You just send Shinto to Kami in this case?


As I said in my initial post, Moon cannot send a shinto to a Kami shrine if recruit is played before marshal. If Moon still has their starting 2 figures in their home province, the Shinto can't be summoned. From FAQ 2.0:

Q: Can the Moon Clan Summon a Shinto into a Province with 2 Moon Clan figures
and immediately send it to Worship? Or Move one of their figures through a
Province that contains 2 Moon Clan figures?
A: No, at no instance can there ever be more than 2 Moon Clan figures in the same Province, even for a moment


I thought it was clarified/confirmed that a Shinto going to worship never actually enters the map. They just go right to the shrine.
So Moon clan should not be penalized if recruit is played before marshall.
 
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Brian D
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MajaiofDreams wrote:
I thought it was clarified/confirmed that a Shinto going to worship never actually enters the map. They just go right to the shrine.
So Moon clan should not be penalized if recruit is played before marshall.


The latest FAQ says otherwise. When a Recruit mandate is played, figures are Summoned to one of the strongholds players have built. This includes Shinto; they are not Summoned at shrines. So if Moon clan has two figures where they have strongholds, they won't have room in the Province to Summon a shinto, even though the player's intent is for that Shinto to go to the mountain to pray (a move that's not a Move.) One way around that would be Path of the Light (At the end of a Recruit Mandate, you may place an extra Shinto on a Shrine.), which is in the Archway set. Placing a shinto bypasses it having to be Summoned at a stronghold.
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Casey Smith
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I was pretty confused about this too, but Soosy explained it pretty good to me in the FAQ 2.0 thread so I am just going to put it here..

------------
Susanoo - Non-Kami Figures can't Move out of this Province.

FAQ - "Climbing to the Shrines is not considered a Move." So we can think of it as the Shinto aren't leaving the Province (via a Move at least), they are merely climbing a Mountain (away from the battle).

Moon clan is limited to 2 figures in a Province. But when a Shinto climbs to the Shrines, it first has to be summoned to the Province. For that moment, there are 3 figures in the province which is not allowed.
 
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Jay Wrobel
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For clarity, when Moon Clan Gets a kami from kami unleashed does it also have 2 force? It doesn't get the Moon base so wasn't sure...
 
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Brian D
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From the Kami Unbound rules

Quote:
The Kami figure counts as 1 Force for its controlling Clan, affecting Harvest and War.

The Kami figure benefits from any of its controlling Clan's abilities and enhancements.


So even though the first sentence seems to indicate otherwise, the second sentence indicates that they would count as 2 Force if they were controlled by the Moon clan.
 
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Bobby Sanmiguel
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I wouldn't use Moon clan in a 3p game for this reason.
 
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Pema
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Just happened in 5p game first round: Turtle and Dragonfly are the first two players and allied. Both select Recruit. Moon is totally screwed. FAQ makes no sense.
 
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Chris Dennett
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pema wrote:
Just happened in 5p game first round: Turtle and Dragonfly are the first two players and allied. Both select Recruit. Moon is totally screwed.
What were the final scores, approximately?
 
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Pema
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cdennett wrote:
pema wrote:
Just happened in 5p game first round: Turtle and Dragonfly are the first two players and allied. Both select Recruit. Moon is totally screwed.
What were the final scores, approximately?


We changed Moon to something else instead of playing with an unnecessary disadvantage. Not allowing placing Shinto warriors at temples might make sense if Moon would have an opportunity to at least do something to avoid that kind of situation.
 
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