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Eclipse: Second Dawn for the Galaxy» Forums » General

Subject: Rare Techs I'd like to see in the Base Game rss

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Brian C
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Glad to hear that Rare Techs have found their way into the base game. Here's some I'd love to see in 2E...

OLDIES BUT GOODIES


Soliton Cannon - Assuming it's in there with the blue dice. More weapon options are appreciated and it's nice to have options that are cheaper than PMs/Antimatter

Sentient Hull - Almost as good as Improved Hull and Positron Computer. Usually gets scooped up fast.

Cloaking Device - Makes any player a threat, especially with Neutron Bombs.

Antimatter Splitter - Makes AM Cannons super-nasty.

Neutron Absorber - Running over a player without Neutron Bombs early in the game is hard.

Flux (or Ion) Missiles - Best counter to PMs (IMO). I'd actually like to see Ion Missiles (2 x 1 damage missiles) on the "normal" tech grid.

Absorption Shield - As with Sentient Hull, I like these parts that combine two things you wouldn't normal value as high.


NEW(ish) KIDS ON THE BLOCK


Wormhole Generator - I've rarely seen this used to any effect in a game. I understand why it's there (so there's always a way to get at turtles), but it's high price and situational use feels more like a rare tech to me.

Trading Station - Basically Orbitals for Materials. Costs Money to build but gives you a Materials square. I know Orbitals kind of stink in 1E, but this would be helpful.

Any other ideas?


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G B
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I hate the neutron absorber. I hope it isn't there. I find that it skews the end game too much. But that is just me.

I want the Flux Missiles, as a standard technology, in the base game. To me, they the THE most important counter to the Plasma Missile "situation."
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Ivan Alaiz
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I’d like the three anti plasma Missile techs in the base game to be honest...
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Brian C
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ghbell wrote:
I want the Flux Missiles, as a standard technology, in the base game. To me, they the THE most important counter to the Plasma Missile "situation."


Totally agree that they are the best counter (fight fire with faster fire). I just really hope they aren't a Rare as there'd only be one. I hold my nose if I have to buy Point Defense and hate Distortion Shield as they are simply a counter that doesn't help you if you aren't facing Missiles.

The thing with Flux Missiles is they need to be extra expensive to factor in the massive Initiative boost you get with them. One part puts you in a position to likely fire first in the Cannon round and two of them pretty much guarantees it. This is why I'd like to see a "Ion Missile" standard tech that can be cheaper and more common, but leaves the initiative boost to Computers and Drives.

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Eric Nolan
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ghbell wrote:
I hate the neutron absorber. I hope it isn't there. I find that it skews the end game too much. But that is just me.


I'm actually thinking of removing Neutron Bombs from the game. I don't like the way the end game can go sometimes and I want to see if forcing people to take a bit more time to take another players systems will reduce the "explosion of violence and over spending" on the last turn or two. Not to mention that no Neutron Bombs means a fleet that is almost entirely missiles is less effective.
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Ben Collins
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I would be ok if Stealth fields didn't return - they felt like a game-breaking technology in the first game.
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Jeff Molander
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Propbuddha wrote:
Trading Station - Basically Orbitals for Materials. Costs Money to build but gives you a Materials square. I know Orbitals kind of stink in 1E, but this would be helpful.


Mechanics-wise, I get the balance/symmetry you're going for, but thematically, this doesn't make sense. Materials are mined. You wouldn't spend a bunch of money putting a big chunk of ore into space and then mine it.
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Hivemind wrote:
ghbell wrote:
I hate the neutron absorber. I hope it isn't there. I find that it skews the end game too much. But that is just me.


I'm actually thinking of removing Neutron Bombs from the game. I don't like the way the end game can go sometimes and I want to see if forcing people to take a bit more time to take another players systems will reduce the "explosion of violence and over spending" on the last turn or two. Not to mention that no Neutron Bombs means a fleet that is almost entirely missiles is less effective.


To me this sounds horrible. Some tactics require neutrons and rely on slowing more powerful fleet by pinning down and sneaking to bomb their systems. Removing neutrons literally removes options.
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Jeff Molander
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Tharas wrote:
Hivemind wrote:
ghbell wrote:
I hate the neutron absorber. I hope it isn't there. I find that it skews the end game too much. But that is just me.


I'm actually thinking of removing Neutron Bombs from the game. I don't like the way the end game can go sometimes and I want to see if forcing people to take a bit more time to take another players systems will reduce the "explosion of violence and over spending" on the last turn or two. Not to mention that no Neutron Bombs means a fleet that is almost entirely missiles is less effective.


To me this sounds horrible. Some tactics require neutrons and rely on slowing more powerful fleet by pinning down and sneaking to bomb their systems. Removing neutrons literally removes options.


Also, it's not really Neutron Bombs' fault that the end game is what it is. The game is on a visible clock and no points are awarded for leftover resources at the end, so there's no reason not to dump all your resources into a last shot at stealing points from other players. Removing Neutron Bombs won't change that, it'll just make it take longer because people now have to roll extra dice for every system they take.
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Philip Morton
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Horse85 wrote:
Propbuddha wrote:
Trading Station - Basically Orbitals for Materials. Costs Money to build but gives you a Materials square. I know Orbitals kind of stink in 1E, but this would be helpful.

Mechanics-wise, I get the balance/symmetry you're going for, but thematically, this doesn't make sense. Materials are mined. You wouldn't spend a bunch of money putting a big chunk of ore into space and then mine it.

Name it "Asteroid Mining Station", then.
 
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Jeff Molander
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Chrondeath wrote:
Horse85 wrote:
Propbuddha wrote:
Trading Station - Basically Orbitals for Materials. Costs Money to build but gives you a Materials square. I know Orbitals kind of stink in 1E, but this would be helpful.

Mechanics-wise, I get the balance/symmetry you're going for, but thematically, this doesn't make sense. Materials are mined. You wouldn't spend a bunch of money putting a big chunk of ore into space and then mine it.

Name it "Asteroid Mining Station", then.


You're missing the point...

It would be economically ridiculous for a space empire/country/state/whatever to build something and then mine that thing. Building something to mine would mean taking a bunch of ore and putting it into some other structure to then send workers to mine the ore back out. That's not mining, it's storage. And there's no reason why storage would actually generate a resource for you.
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Tahsin Shamma
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The main thing is that materials act as a location limited resource.

Money and Science are flexible and can be created if systems don't have them. Materials are fixed. It's an essential part of the game strategy.
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J Devery
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Horse85 wrote:
Chrondeath wrote:
Horse85 wrote:
Propbuddha wrote:
Trading Station - Basically Orbitals for Materials. Costs Money to build but gives you a Materials square. I know Orbitals kind of stink in 1E, but this would be helpful.

Mechanics-wise, I get the balance/symmetry you're going for, but thematically, this doesn't make sense. Materials are mined. You wouldn't spend a bunch of money putting a big chunk of ore into space and then mine it.

Name it "Asteroid Mining Station", then.


You're missing the point...

It would be economically ridiculous for a space empire/country/state/whatever to build something and then mine that thing. Building something to mine would mean taking a bunch of ore and putting it into some other structure to then send workers to mine the ore back out. That's not mining, it's storage. And there's no reason why storage would actually generate a resource for you.


I am sure in Science Fiction we can find a way to synthetically make ore from energy or something...
 
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Philip Morton
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Horse85 wrote:
Chrondeath wrote:
Name it "Asteroid Mining Station", then.

You're missing the point...

It would be economically ridiculous for a space empire/country/state/whatever to build something and then mine that thing. Building something to mine would mean taking a bunch of ore and putting it into some other structure to then send workers to mine the ore back out. That's not mining, it's storage. And there's no reason why storage would actually generate a resource for you.

When you think "Asteroid mining", your first thought is that someone constructed an artificial asteroid just to mine it?
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Jeff Molander
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Chrondeath wrote:
Horse85 wrote:
Chrondeath wrote:
Name it "Asteroid Mining Station", then.

You're missing the point...

It would be economically ridiculous for a space empire/country/state/whatever to build something and then mine that thing. Building something to mine would mean taking a bunch of ore and putting it into some other structure to then send workers to mine the ore back out. That's not mining, it's storage. And there's no reason why storage would actually generate a resource for you.

When you think "Asteroid mining", your first thought is that someone constructed an artificial asteroid just to mine it?


Not at all.

OP made a statement about building 'orbitals' for materials.

I made a statement about why it would be thematically silly in Eclipse to be able to build something that would then provide materials.

You then suggested calling it an asteroid mining station, which doesn't really address or demonstrate comprehension of the statement that I made about why this materials orbital would be problematic.

This led me to believe that my initial statement was misunderstood by you, so I explained it further and more clearly.
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Brian C
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Agree it’s a thematically horrible concept, but would like to de a tech option to help folk get out of a material shortage. Perhaps it could let you trade money 2:1 materials?
 
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Philip Morton
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Horse85 wrote:
Not at all.

OP made a statement about building 'orbitals' for materials.

I made a statement about why it would be thematically silly in Eclipse to be able to build something that would then provide materials.

You then suggested calling it an asteroid mining station, which doesn't really address or demonstrate comprehension of the statement that I made about why this materials orbital would be problematic.

I am either still confused at your objection, or confused at your inability to understand the thematic fix the alternate name proposes.

The complaint appears to be that, thematically, it makes no sense for a space empire to spend resources putting those or other resources into space, just to extract them again. That was the initial reasoning why Orbitals themselves can only take research or economy cubes.

The initial proposal was calling it a "trade station", implying that thematically you're not piling resources into space and then mining them, you're setting up some kind of market where you can take advantage of an existing(?) below-the-usual-level-of-simulation trade among NPCs to...siphon or tax? resources. Or maybe the money spent on the station is supposed to indicate that you just spent a bunch of money buying materials from these random space traders, and the orders are just taking time to come in. The diplomatic-relations cubes already suggest that trade between empires can result in increased production of anything, including materials, for both; the idea of building something to encourage this level of trade isn't a huge step, though without an obvious trade partner you have to make the aforementioned assumption that there's an existing level of unaligned space commerce for you to interact with.

I was suggesting that the objection to "building a thing to get materials from" could also be addressed by implying that all sectors have some level of material-containing asteroids floating around, and the structure you're building is allowing your population to begin exploiting those. Asteroid mining is a frequent sci-fi concept, so the idea was that that name ought to produce an obvious implication where the materials are coming from--you're mining them from asteroids.

Am I misunderstanding something about the thematic objection? Is there a hang-up on the fact that these themes can all be shorthanded as "material orbitals" because they would all function the same way and Orbitals are the existing closest parallel?

None of this seem weirder, thematically, than the...what were they called, "Projects"? from the expansion, of which there was a cycle of them that involved spending large amounts of two resources to gain a big chunk of the third. I don't even remember if those had names; if they did, what did the money+research->materials one imply about where its materials were coming from, and why is that not subject to the same objections?
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Jeff Molander
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Propbuddha wrote:
Agree it’s a thematically horrible concept, but would like to de a tech option to help folk get out of a material shortage. Perhaps it could let you trade money 2:1 materials?


I could get on board with that, as long as it was costed a bit higher then Advanced Mining, since Advanced Mining has the drawback of relying on having the right systems.
 
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