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Kingdom Death: Monster» Forums » Strategy

Subject: Low risk, high tedium (crit farming) rss

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David Sintec
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This discussion started as part of another post about Diabolical. Rather than continue to hijack that thread I thought I'd kick of a separate discussion about this. The statement that kicked off the discussion was More Mellotron's claim that:

"You can farm the L1 for nearly as many resources, with even less risk, and save a hunt XP on every survivor. It's just not terribly fun, but it is, I continue to believe, the obviously rational decision if you're looking for the most bang for the buck."

Now whilst I don't disagree this to me feels like it's trading that risk for the tedium of drawing the fight out to get more crits. Not something that personally appeals. I'm also not convinced it's that worth it.

Looking at the numbers the SA has 16 resource cards. Fighting a Lvl1 SA you're guaranteed to take home 25% of that deck if you win. Against a Lvl2 you're guaranteed ~44% of the deck. You've also got additional opportunities to draw the hunt event that gives you the Large Flat Tooth cards due to the longer hunt; if you can get both teeth that's now 56% of the deck. Plus you've got the opporunity for post OD Mining and Gathering when hunting the Lvl2 which is a nice bonus.

At the start of the fight I might well treat it as a crit farm. Cat's eye to set up nice crits with extra resource draws and have your high luck/deadly survivor land the wounds. You only need to land 5-6 crits to be taking home 90% of the deck (assuming you got lucky with the hunt events). Against a Lvl1 you'd need 8-9 crits to get the same result, probably more because you're less likely to get the Teeth from the hunt events. 5-6 crits against a lvl 2 means 37% of the wounds need to be criticals, 8-9 crits against a lvl 1 means 81% of the wounds need to be criticals. If you didn't get the 2 teeth from the hunt then you can add 2 more crits.

Must leave for work now so will follow this up with more numbers later.

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Alessio Massuoli
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While I always like to challenge higher tier monsters, the fact that you can crit farm the entire Resource deck from L1 Antelope is a thing that you can do a bit more than half the times with the right equipment and disposition (dice really hate me, but that's beyond the point).

I always felt that gating gear behind higher-level monsters is the right incentive to hunt them. In my last PoLantern campaign, I happened to hunt a Phoenix exactly twice: once for the Plackart (because I was not nearly as ready to directly tackle the L3) and another time for the Crest Crown.

Giving a Strange Resource required to craft some equipment is the best example of proper higher-level hunting. The Gorm is one of the quarries that does this job best, even upgrading the armor set on higher level hunts.

Another way which I personally like is to add events before/after showdown that change things/give out rewards for a calculated risk when hunting different levels. Again, the Gorm does this job best: you could actually want to hunt a L2 Gorm if you plan to get Legendary Lungs or Acid Palms on someone easily (this is a thing I usually do if I have to face a Slender Man at some point - of course, the survivor getting Legendary Lungs is never the one I wanted ).
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Jessie Christian
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It's worth the risk so long as you are able to control the fight. I think coming home with the resource deck plus whatever else you gained from the Hunt events and various other terrain. Against the Screaming Antelope Level 2 you get 7 SA for beating him. You only need 9 more crits to get the rest of the deck. Now that would be hard, if he didn't have 13 Hit Locations that give resources on Crits. Theoretically in one Lantern Year you could come back with 22+ resources against a level 2.

This strategy works provides you can control the fight. If you can control the fight then definitely farm. I know people will get him to Chow Down just so he heals up and that's a viable tragedy against the Level 2, but not so much against the level 3. My reccomendation is to always the Circlet locations you want and get crits on those. You need 9 crits to get the full deck, so you have 7 other wound opportunities.
 
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David Sintec
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Percentage of wounds which need to be crits in order to return a given number of SA resource cards:


Num Cards 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16
Lvl1 SA 0% 9% 18% 27% 36% 45% 55% 64% 73% 82% 91% 100% 109%
Lvl2 SA 0% 0% 0% 0% 6% 13% 19% 25% 31% 38% 44% 50% 56%


It's physically impossible to return from a Lvl 1 hunt with all the cards without letting the Antelope heal up at least once. Against a Lvl 2 it only requires just over 50% of the wounds to be crits, which is far more manageable.

Assuming your attackers have +2 luck (luck charm + deadly for example) they've got a 30% chance of a crit each time they hit. That gives you an expected return of 7-8 cards against the Lvl 1 and 12 cards against the Lvl 2. The higher toughness of the Lvl 2 might also be seen as an advantage here because non-crits are more likely to be failures rather than wounds leaving more chances for crits without the need to let the antelope heal up.

You're also getting 2 extra basic resources fighting the Lvl 2. Whilst not directly equivalent to 2 more SA resources in many cases the difference to what you can craft will probably be minimal (unless you're hanging out for a very specific SA resource to complete the armour set or something).

Without micro-managing the whole fight you can easily be leaving a Lvl2 SA fight with 18 cards, compared to 11-12 from the Lvl1. Add to that the option of post Overwhelming Darkness mining and gathering and I think the Lvl 2 is the way to go every time. Sure you can bring home a similar number of resources from dragging out a Lvl 1 fight but I also want fun out of my game and that just doesn't seem like a good time to me.

Note I've not even taken into account the increased probability if getting the 2 teeth from the Antelope hunt event when going up against the Lvl2. Get that and your up to 20 cards, that's 2 off the max possible.
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David Sintec
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ugh that table formatted horribly - is there some nice way to add an actual table to these posts?
 
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Nick Wirtz
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Yeah... that's impossible to read without coffee.
 
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Ronald
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sintec wrote:

Num Cards 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16
Lvl1 SA 0% 9% 18% 27% 36% 45% 55% 64% 73% 82% 91% 100% 109%
Lvl2 SA 0% 0% 0% 0% 6% 13% 19% 25% 31% 38% 44% 50% 56%


Code tag [ c ] ... [ /c ] (without space)
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Scott Cantor
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sintec wrote:

Now whilst I don't disagree this to me feels like it's trading that risk for the tedium of drawing the fight out to get more crits. Not something that personally appeals. I'm also not convinced it's that worth it.


And you actually presented evidence to that effect, which I appreciate. Most other responses have been "well, maybe, but it's not fun", which is really beside the point if you don't think the L2 fight is all that fun to start with, and I don't.

I hadn't fully considered the hunt event issue, though to be fair, that requires good rolls, and you're risking hunt events that can increase the risk of the fight itself. I don't know that on balance the longer hunt is a real selling point to me, but the math on that would be hard.

I think you need to factor in enough population to avoid burning through your survivors with the extra XP, but that's achievable in at least some cases, particularly since the L2 fight isn't one that really requires buffed survivors.

 
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David Sintec
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Main selling point on the longer hunt (at least for me) is the opportunity to get post OD mining in. Iron becomes increasingly important and that's one of the best ways to get it.
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Scott Cantor
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sintec wrote:

It's physically impossible to return from a Lvl 1 hunt with all the cards without letting the Antelope heal up at least once. Against a Lvl 2 it only requires just over 50% of the wounds to be crits, which is far more manageable.


It's not too manageable for me on balance, unfortunately. I typically go through entire fights with one or two criticals and call that a win.

The only way I'm generally getting that many cards from any Antelope is with a number of healing cycles and an all-day fight, and obviously a long fight increases the risk if I'm not over-buffed to that point. Eventually that becomes a lesser consideration but by then I'm off fighting other things for specialized gear.
 
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Scott Cantor
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sintec wrote:
Main selling point on the longer hunt (at least for me) is the opportunity to get post OD mining in. Iron becomes increasingly important and that's one of the best ways to get it.


I don't have the chart with me, but I didn't recall there being an iron advantage to mining post-OD. Maybe I'm misreading the page, or I'm just forgetting something.
 
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sintec wrote:
It's physically impossible to return from a Lvl 1 hunt with all the cards without letting the Antelope heal up at least once. Against a Lvl 2 it only requires just over 50% of the wounds to be crits, which is far more manageable.

Yeah, you are off base. You're not taking into account AI manipulation + fecal salves which are used in order to make the Antelope Graze almost whenever you want it to (plus Chow Down) - plus about half a dozen other factors that come into it.

Basically, yes on the surface it seems like faster playtime to get the resources from the L2, but you do not want to be doing that early on, or with survivors who are weapon training. Also L1 doesn't have diabolical, which is a seriously obnoxious trait to try and control.

Still, it's nothing compared to crit-farming the L1 Flower Knight, who even has room for Post Forest Gate mining.
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David Sintec
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fenpaints wrote:
sintec wrote:
It's physically impossible to return from a Lvl 1 hunt with all the cards without letting the Antelope heal up at least once. Against a Lvl 2 it only requires just over 50% of the wounds to be crits, which is far more manageable.

Yeah, you are unfortunately way off base. You're not taking into account AI manipulation + fecal salves which are used in order to make the Antelope Graze almost whenever you want it to (plus Chow Down) - plus about half a dozen other factors that come into it.


Getting the antelope to graze/chow down was what I was referring to when I said "without letting the Antelope heal up". I appreciate it's very easy to get the SA to do that due to it's instinct and/or chow down. My point was if you don't engage in that behaviour you'd need to roll one more crit than the SA has wounds against the Lvl 1 to empty it's deck (assuming you didn't get any SA resources from the hunt).

Is there something else I'm missing here?
 
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David Sintec
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I do take the point that you could get the whole SA deck in a very early LY against a Lvl1 if you were willing to drag the fight out all day. Facing a Lvl2 then would potentially be suicidal. If I'm at a disadvantage compared to those who can be arsed to do that then that's fine with me.
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Sabe Jones
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I get that it's optimal to do this, for values of "optimal" that exclude the purpose of playing the game in the first place, but is it really necessary the way pro-crit-farming folks are painting it? Is the game designed around the expectation that you're going to exhaust the entire monster resource deck every hunt from LY~3 onward?

KDM's design is wonky in places, but that seems really unlikely to me.
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sintec wrote:
I do take the point that you could get the whole SA deck in a very early LY against a Lvl1 if you were willing to drag the fight out all day.

It's about 20mins extra playtime when you get used to it, a lot of the time it's just skipping goes or moving and being patient. It's faster than the L2 sadly.
 
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Jumping in for a rule question and this seems a good place to ask since I sort of accidentally crit-farmed a chowing down Lvl 2 SA to the point where I emptied its deck and have 3 resources I couldn't draw from the reward:
I suppose I don't get any compensation
How do you know when to stop farming that mother? ^^
 
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Razoupaf wrote:
Jumping in for a rule question and this seems a good place to ask since I sort of accidentally crit-farmed a chowing down Lvl 2 SA to the point where I emptied its deck and have 3 resources I couldn't draw from the reward:
I suppose I don't get any compensation
How do you know when to stop farming that mother? ^^

Doesn't matter how you draw the entire monster resource deck, if you get it from crits and nothing from monster rewards it's still a massive success. But basically, you stop crit farming when you're close to getting the full deck (factoring in rewards) and you've hit the important resources (bladder, horns etc) or when you feel that to drag things out further might result in unacceptable losses.

It's something you get a feel for over time. Also once you've turbo charged your resource situation a couple of times you have a platform where you don't really need to do it anymore and you can work on experiencing really tough fights.

As an aside, the lack of self healing on The Gorm (iirc) is why I think it's a better designed monster than the White Lion (Lick Wounds), Antelope (Instinct/Chow down) and Flower Knight (Cocoon). Spidicules is likewise a well designed monster when you consider just the showdown aspects of it.
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fenpaints wrote:
Doesn't matter how you draw the entire monster resource deck, if you get it from crits and nothing from monster rewards it's still a massive success. But basically, you stop crit farming when you're close to getting the full deck (factoring in rewards) and you've hit the important resources (bladder, horns etc) or when you feel that to drag things out further might result in unacceptable losses.


Yeah I did have my zero presence bow specialist unexpectedly killed despite his full leather set (rolled a 1 on masticate. Twice -.-) but I had a birth afterwards so it makes up for it.
Guess I'll farm the lion before the hand and reach spear mastery before trying the phoenix and having everyone disappear ^^

Thanks for the answer
 
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Yeah, regardless of crit farming or whatever you're trying to do that isn't the most effective means of obliterating the monster, it really just takes feeling through what's a safe risk.

The easiest rule of thumb is, of whichever survivors—that I care about at all—take the worst hit, will that be a problem (ex: under normal circumstances, will hits past what they can dodge, on the wrong hit location, force them to roll on a severe table)?

If not, keep going. If so, decide what that risk is worth to you, probably comparing it to how much you've already gotten and what you were shooting for. In the example of the above resource deck, that one's pretty easy, since you know you're going to get a flat number minimum.
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