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Terraforming Mars: Prelude» Forums » General

Subject: Vitor iconography rss

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karel pepiku
Czech Republic
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We have had a discussion about Vitor in my gaming group and with translators, about triggering its effect by itself. I can see Vitor is meant to work like Celestic's "floater depicted anywhere = take it", but all people involved in the discussion found it super counter-intuitive that Vitor's ability is triggered by the same symbol which is used as part of its effect description.

It would be like Saturn Systems triggering itself twice - once for the Jovian tag in the top right corner and once for the Jovian tag in the company effect description. Which is indeed not the case, so why not unify this approach?

Wouldn't it be more clear if Vitor had its own VP icon also somewhere outside the box with effect description (which would still depict its own icon inside as part of the effect explanation)? Perhaps with 0 points (or maybe even 1/2 point - in case of ties, Vitor would be ahead - thematically as some kind of public support due to crowdfunding).

Vitor can be seen here:
http://www.fryxgames.se/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/PRELUDE_R...

Any thoughts on that?
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Bill Buchanan
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Ya, I don't get the "including this" part of the card at all. I think it's pretty sloppy to be honest. Not sure how they could think that was a good idea ...

Maybe there's still some way they could change it? Probably not, but man ...
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Michael Denman
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I had never noticed that ANY of the corporations trigger themselves. I hate it. It's a sloppy and pointless way to design the card. You don't need "including this". Just show on the left what you start with. Having Vitor start with 45... and then adding 3 more is just completely awkward. Drop the phrase and show 48 megacredits on the left. Done.

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Jason DuVall

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Trump wrote:
I had never noticed that ANY of the corporations trigger themselves. I hate it. It's a sloppy and pointless way to design the card. You don't need "including this". Just show on the left what you start with. Having Vitor start with 45... and then adding 3 more is just completely awkward. Drop the phrase and show 48 megacredits on the left. Done.


No, the current wording is essential, otherwise you get rules lawyers trying to have the best of both worlds.

It either needs to be the current wording (45 and "including this"), or changed to 48 and "not including this."

And since there's already cards in Terraforming Mars with the "including this" phrasing, it's better to CONTINUE that phrasing, rather than causing confusion with inconsistent phrasing.
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Matt Hoffman
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Maybe it’s their way of heading off repeated threads here about whether or not the icon shown on the card triggers the card.
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Michael Denman
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I guess I'd be okay with the "not including this" phrasing, but I still think the existing phrasing is foolish. I understand what you're saying about it being consistent with other cards, but I don't see that as relevant because this is NOT other cards. This is a Corporation. As such, I don't consider it ever being "put into play". It simply IS in play as part of setup.
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Patrick G.
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WBuchanan wrote:
Ya, I don't get the "including this" part of the card at all. I think it's pretty sloppy to be honest. Not sure how they could think that was a good idea ...

Maybe there's still some way they could change it? Probably not, but man ...

I don't understand why any one takes issue with "including this". It makes sense. In most games cards don't effect themselves. They felt they should make sure to specify this on these cards.
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Jacob Fryxelius
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Hi,
I'd like to explain our reasoning behind Vitor wording.

We couldn't write just VP, because then it would include negative VP cards, and it would exclude '1 per X resources', since they do not have any VP when being played (no resources on yet).

The wording 'VP icon' refers to the graphc element on the cards, not to their function, which allows us to unabigously explain how it works. The only other existing example of the word 'icon' is on Celestic, where we refer to the resource icons, not to the resources themselves.
In the case of tag icons, only tag icons on the top right on the cards count as actual tags, while they are only tag icons if found in other places, used to refer to tags. Saturn Systems for example has 2 jovian tag icons, but only 1 of them is actually a tag (the one in the top right corner). Since its effect refers to jovian tags, not jovian tag icons, it only triggers itself once.

Besides this effort to be correct, we also use the explanation text to clarify how it works.

Wording is tricky business!
Cheers!
/Jacob
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Bill Buchanan
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corkysru wrote:
WBuchanan wrote:
Ya, I don't get the "including this" part of the card at all. I think it's pretty sloppy to be honest. Not sure how they could think that was a good idea ...

Maybe there's still some way they could change it? Probably not, but man ...

I don't understand why any one takes issue with "including this". It makes sense. In most games cards don't effect themselves. They felt they should make sure to specify this on these cards.


I have issue with the "including this" because the "VP Icon" it is refering too isn't an actual VP Icon that gives points. It is purely there to demonstrate the ability of the corporation ...

It's silly that such an icon would be worth 3 money. But oh well, it is what it is ...
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karel pepiku
Czech Republic
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Exactly, the problem is not with the "VP icon" or "non-negative points". It is with the fact that the description is triggered by itself.

The written language on Vitor is clear, it says "including this", but the graphical symbolism is ambiguous, it's like me saying this sentence:
"If I say 'yes', punch me into my face." ... so would you punch me right when I finish that sentence, or would you wait for my next 'yes'? Simple placement of another VP icon somewhere else on Vitor would clarify it.
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Bill Buchanan
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karelpepiku wrote:
Exactly, the problem is not with the "VP icon" or "non-negative points". It is with the fact that the description is triggered by itself.

The written language on Vitor is clear, it says "including this", but the graphical symbolism is ambiguous, it's like me saying this sentence:
"If I say 'yes', punch me into my face." ... so would you punch me right when I finish that sentence, or would you wait for my next 'yes'? Simple placement of another VP icon somewhere else on Vitor would clarify it.


Ya, I think the obvious solution (if it even required a "solution"), and that would have actually made sense, would be to have put a VP Icon with a ZERO inside it in the bottom right of the corporation cards.
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Rikard Johansson
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Trump wrote:
This is a Corporation. As such, I don't consider it ever being "put into play". It simply IS in play as part of setup.


Well you will need to change your view on this because they are clearly put into play and this distinction will start to matter in the prelude expansion where corps can new trigger each other and player order during the setup can have different outcomes.
 
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Steve Clark
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WBuchanan wrote:
Ya, I think the obvious solution (if it even required a "solution"), and that would have actually made sense, would be to have put a VP Icon with a ZERO inside it in the bottom right of the corporation cards.


It would've been easier just to give them 1VP...hardly gamebreaking. (and thematic, too)
 
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Bill Buchanan
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Steve C wrote:
WBuchanan wrote:
Ya, I think the obvious solution (if it even required a "solution"), and that would have actually made sense, would be to have put a VP Icon with a ZERO inside it in the bottom right of the corporation cards.


It would've been easier just to give them 1VP...hardly gamebreaking. (and thematic, too)


Sure, that'd also be better than what it is now. Oh well, I guess it is what it is.
 
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