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Legendary: A Marvel Deck Building Game» Forums » Rules

Subject: multiple masterminds rss

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John Kelly
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If you have more than one mastermind and a Master Strike comes out...
Do both Masterminds act, or does the newest one "cover" the last one?
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Josh Worley
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DrPolygon wrote:
If you have more than one mastermind and a Master Strike comes out...
Do both Masterminds act, or does the newest one "cover" the last one?

You perform both of their Master Strikes, but you decide in which order. So if you have two Masterminds that use Strikes to do things, it can be beneficial.

For example Mysterio converts the Strike to another Tactic. Galactus puts that Strike in the city as a destroyed space. If you play Mysterio's Strike first to make it a new Tactic, you no longer have a physical Master Strike card to use for Galactus... So nothing would happen for his action.
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John Kelly
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cool. That is a very interesting rule.
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Tomer Mlynarsky
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While we are on the subject, I just had a game today. It was against Dark Phoenix, her master strike got horrors out and she pulled out the "get another mastermind".

I picked Nick Fury.

His master strike says that you demolish a number of time based on the number of master strikes next to him.



So does that mean it only counts master strikes that are carried out from now on? Or does it count all strikes in general?

Because I assumed they weren't expecting the double mastermind situation in the middle of the game.
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Justin H

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GrandMasterFox wrote:
While we are on the subject, I just had a game today. It was against Dark Phoenix, her master strike got horrors out and she pulled out the "get another mastermind".

I picked Nick Fury.

His master strike says that you demolish a number of time based on the number of master strikes next to him.



So does that mean it only counts master strikes that are carried out from now on? Or does it count all strikes in general?

Because I assumed they weren't expecting the double mastermind situation in the middle of the game.

I would say that since his Strike says "Stack this strike next to Nick Fury. Then Demolish each player once for each Strike stacked here" that it would only count going forward. It doesn't depend on the amount of Strikes played, just the amount stacked next to him. That's a strict interpretation of the rules.
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Justin H

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swirlsaepi wrote:
DrPolygon wrote:
If you have more than one mastermind and a Master Strike comes out...
Do both Masterminds act, or does the newest one "cover" the last one?

You perform both of their Master Strikes, but you decide in which order. So if you have two Masterminds that use Strikes to do things, it can be beneficial.

For example Mysterio converts the Strike to another Tactic. Galactus puts that Strike in the city as a destroyed space. If you play Mysterio's Strike first to make it a new Tactic, you no longer have a physical Master Strike card to use for Galactus... So nothing would happen for his action.

Is this an official ruling? I'd want to perform fully each Master Strike, unless that's not actually how it would work. I'd feel like I was cheating if I had 4 Masterminds out there that used the strike, say Mysterio, Stryfe, Galactus and Uru-Enchanted Iron Man and I only stuck it next to Stryfe. I haven't had this actually come up, but I think I'd use wounds or bystanders or dig out some of the "blank" cards to make placeholders.

Maybe I'm just a glutton for punishment though.
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David A
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The only thing I can find is from the Secret Wars and X-Men rules. All it says is the active player chooses the order so that would seem to be a valid play.

Volume 1 wrote:
Multiple Masterminds
When some powerful Villains in this set escape, they ascend to become new Masterminds, so there are multiple Masterminds in the game! Schemes can do this too. Players must defeat all the Masterminds to win. When a Master Strike occurs, each Mastermind does its Master Strike ability. The player whose turn it is picks the order.

Volume 2 wrote:
Multiple Masterminds
When some powerful Villains in this set escape, they ascend to become new Masterminds, so there are multiple Masterminds in the game! Schemes can do this too. Players must defeat all the Masterminds to win. When a Master Strike occurs, each Mastermind does its Master Strike ability. The player whose turn it is picks the order.
• Ascended Masterminds keep their other abilities, like Fateful Resurrection and Circle of Kung-Fu.

X-Men wrote:
Villains Ascending into Masterminds
Like Legendary® Secret Wars Vol. 1 & 2, some powerful Villains ascend to become new Masterminds, so there are multiple Masterminds in the game! Players must defeat them all to win. When a Master Strike occurs, each Mastermind does its Master Strike ability. The player whose turn it is picks the order.

**edit for sizes
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Allen Grimes
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As if Dark Phoenix wasn't hard enough. I just learned I've been playing the Ascended Mastermind wrong. I was covering up the first Mastermind with the newly ascended Mastermind (Jason Wyngarde) and doing only his master-strike when the master-strike card came out. I would fight him once, place him in my victory pile and then it was back to fighting Dark Phoenix.

Wait...

So, the original MM has 1 to 4 tactics underneath, representing the number of times still needed to fight the original MM to win the game.

Does the newly ascended MM have any tactics underneath them?

If the new MM has zero tactics underneath, then that is no different than a defeated MM by the original rules (fight 4 times to win), right? A MM with zero tactics underneath is a win, game over, right? So if you have 2 MM side-by-side and one has 4 tactics underneath and the other has zero, then it seems like the one with zero is defeated.

How many times do you need to fight the new (additional) MM for him to go away? Do you draw a tactic when you fight him? Can you even choose which MM you fight?

I'm suddenly so confused. Can somebody clear this up for me?
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Michael Green
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jhochges wrote:
swirlsaepi wrote:
DrPolygon wrote:
If you have more than one mastermind and a Master Strike comes out...
Do both Masterminds act, or does the newest one "cover" the last one?

You perform both of their Master Strikes, but you decide in which order. So if you have two Masterminds that use Strikes to do things, it can be beneficial.

For example Mysterio converts the Strike to another Tactic. Galactus puts that Strike in the city as a destroyed space. If you play Mysterio's Strike first to make it a new Tactic, you no longer have a physical Master Strike card to use for Galactus... So nothing would happen for his action.

Is this an official ruling? I'd want to perform fully each Master Strike, unless that's not actually how it would work. I'd feel like I was cheating if I had 4 Masterminds out there that used the strike, say Mysterio, Stryfe, Galactus and Uru-Enchanted Iron Man and I only stuck it next to Stryfe. I haven't had this actually come up, but I think I'd use wounds or bystanders or dig out some of the "blank" cards to make placeholders.

Maybe I'm just a glutton for punishment though.

That’s how I’d play it too.
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Michael Green
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Allen Games wrote:
As if Dark Phoenix wasn't hard enough. I just learned I've been playing the Ascended Mastermind wrong. I was covering up the first Mastermind with the newly ascended Mastermind (Jason Wyngarde) and doing only his master-strike when the master-strike card came out. I would fight him once, place him in my victory pile and then it was back to fighting Dark Phoenix.

Wait...

So, the original MM has 1 to 4 tactics underneath, representing the number of times still needed to fight the original MM to win the game.

Does the newly ascended MM have any tactics underneath them?

If the new MM has zero tactics underneath, then that is no different than a defeated MM by the original rules (fight 4 times to win), right? A MM with zero tactics underneath is a win, game over, right? So if you have 2 MM side-by-side and one has 4 tactics underneath and the other has zero, then it seems like the one with zero is defeated.

How many times do you need to fight the new (additional) MM for him to go away? Do you draw a tactic when you fight him? Can you even choose which MM you fight?

I'm suddenly so confused. Can somebody clear this up for me?

Assuming we’re talking about adding a Mastermind with one tactic (rather than a Villain that ascends to become a Mastermind):

You add the extra Mastermind with one tactic.
From this point you may choose which Mastermind to fight.
When you fight this Mastermind you get it’s tactic and it is defeated and no longer in play.
Until then, you have not won the game and if a Master Strike occurs you do both effects in the order of the current player’s choice.

Villains that ascend to become Masterminds are slightly different in that they have no tactics, just their one card. In that case, they are still in play until you defeat them one time, but you get their card instead of a tactic when you do so.
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Allen Grimes
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dontfeedthegreen wrote:
Allen Games wrote:
As if Dark Phoenix wasn't hard enough. I just learned I've been playing the Ascended Mastermind wrong. I was covering up the first Mastermind with the newly ascended Mastermind (Jason Wyngarde) and doing only his master-strike when the master-strike card came out. I would fight him once, place him in my victory pile and then it was back to fighting Dark Phoenix.

Wait...

So, the original MM has 1 to 4 tactics underneath, representing the number of times still needed to fight the original MM to win the game.

Does the newly ascended MM have any tactics underneath them?

If the new MM has zero tactics underneath, then that is no different than a defeated MM by the original rules (fight 4 times to win), right? A MM with zero tactics underneath is a win, game over, right? So if you have 2 MM side-by-side and one has 4 tactics underneath and the other has zero, then it seems like the one with zero is defeated.

How many times do you need to fight the new (additional) MM for him to go away? Do you draw a tactic when you fight him? Can you even choose which MM you fight?

I'm suddenly so confused. Can somebody clear this up for me?

Assuming we’re talking about adding a Mastermind with one tactic (rather than a Villain that ascends to become a Mastermind):

You add the extra Mastermind with one tactic.
From this point you may choose which Mastermind to fight.
When you fight this Mastermind you get it’s tactic and it is defeated and no longer in play.
Until then, you have not won the game and if a Master Strike occurs you do both effects in the order of the current player’s choice.

Villains that ascend to become Masterminds are slightly different in that they have no tactics, just their one card. In that case, they are still in play until you defeat them one time, but you get their card instead of a tactic when you do so.

I am just now realizing that Multiple Mastermind is different than a Villain who Ascends to Mastermind. I guess I haven't encountered Multiple Mastermind. Also, I see how the abbreviation I was using ("MM") was confusing. I was using "MM" for MasterMind, but thank you for explaining both. This makes sense. Where would I be without you guys? I feel like the rules could be a little more clear, but it makes sense now. Thanks.

...Dark Phoenix's powers appear to be growing the closer I get to defeating her and so does my resolve.
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John Kelly
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Wow. This thread got a lot deeper than I thought it would go. It sounds like there no official rule about what happens when two Masterminds have placement info. The rules seem pretty clear about playing the effects of each mastermind, but that doesn't rule out situations that would stop the card. The rules also say play them in order, which means each Mastermind completes the Mastermind Masterstrike text before moving on to the next Mastermind. If the text says to place the card in a special spot, and then a later Mastermind has instructions on the placement of the card, what do you do? Which is more right: Killing the replay of the Masterstrike by placing it in a special spot, or adding substitute cards to the game to represent more Masterstrikes?

I think if you are lucky enough to have the situation and ingenuity to order the Masterstike events so that it was to your advantage, even if it means stopping the card from advancing--you should do it. That's more fun right?
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Tomer Mlynarsky
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For the record, it's just not the case of where you put the card.
There are other conflicting strikes.

Most notably : Doctor Doom (and his Battleworld Scheme clone)

It says that you put 2 cards on top of your deck if you have no Tech card and have 6 cards in hand.


So any other mastermind that changes the number of cards in your hand nullifies that strike.





But yeah, you basically pick the order you want it to go.
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David "Davy" Ashleydale
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This is another one of those situations where it seems like the earlier Masterminds were created without knowing that there could ever be multiple Masterminds.

When it's worded like, "Place this Master Strike next to the Mastermind... Count the number of Master Strikes next to the Mastermind...," then other Masterminds wouldn't seem to be able to count them for themselves.

So I wish that the Masterminds that count the number of played Master Strikes were written more like, "Master Strike: Place this Master Strike in the Master Strike Stack. For each Master Strike in that stack, each player gains 1 Wound." So then if there were a second Mastermind that had, "Master Strike: Place this Master Strike in the Master Strike Stack. For each Master Strike in that stack, KO a Hero from HQ," then they could both fire off.

I don't know if that's the intent, but it seems like a better, more challenging way to play.
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Tomer Mlynarsky
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Still wouldn't work with Mysterio though
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David "Davy" Ashleydale
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GrandMasterFox wrote:
Still wouldn't work with Mysterio though

For Mysterio, I would want it to say, "Master Strike: Shuffle an unused Master Strike from the game box into Mysterio's face down Mastermind Tactics. If you have no more unused Master Strikes, use any other unused card as a proxy..."
 
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David "Davy" Ashleydale
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Another solution would be to word the Master Strikes more like, "Master Strike: KO this Master Strike. For each Master Strike in the KO pile, each player gains 1 Wound."

I don't think there's any real reason to have to stack them right next to the Mastermind -- they probably only did that for convenience in being able to immediately see how many there are. But I think you could stack them in the KO area in a way that they are still easily countable.
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Tomer Mlynarsky
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Or just use Shards or something to count them.
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David "Davy" Ashleydale
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Although, I could also see the designer saying, "For the Master Strike effects that say 'Stack next to this Mastermind and count them,' they are powerful enough that we just wanted one of those to fire off for each Master Strike drawn. If you have multiple Masterminds that are counting their own stacks, you get kind of a reprieve in that situation."

It just depends on the intent. It could very well be that the intent was to fight multiple Masterminds all at full strength and nastiness at the same time.
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Darth Ed
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Official clarification on this would be nice. Unfortunately, Devin only seems to answer rules questions on Facebook these days.

FWIW, I agree with Josh and Justin above and a strict interpretation of the rules as written. I certainly don't think you should go fishing in the box for extra cards or repurpose tokens in order to handle situations like this. If one Mastermind says to place a Master Strike in one spot and the other Mastermind says to place it in some other spot, the current player chooses the order, you do one, and then you do the other. Yes, this may nullify the Master Strike effect of some Masterminds in a Multiple Masterminds context, but I don't think we should "retcon" the Master Strike effects of older Masterminds without an official clarification or errata.
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Jason Walker
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DarthEd wrote:
Official clarification on this would be nice. Unfortunately, Devin only seems to answer rules questions on Facebook these days.

And even then, it seems like it's only one day every month or two. Plenty of big questions get ignored there too.
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Tomer Mlynarsky
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He's leaving UD so it's kind of a given
 
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Jason Walker
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You have Devin confused with Brenner, right? I haven't seen anything about Devin moving on, and he's probably not a full employee.
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Tomer Mlynarsky
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TravelSized wrote:
You have Devin confused with Brenner, right? I haven't seen anything about Devin moving on, and he's probably not a full employee.

Oh, Oops. Yeah, I think so.
 
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Josh Worley
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DarthEd wrote:
Official clarification on this would be nice. Unfortunately, Devin only seems to answer rules questions on Facebook these days.

FWIW, I agree with Josh and Justin above and a strict interpretation of the rules as written. I certainly don't think you should go fishing in the box for extra cards or repurpose tokens in order to handle situations like this. If one Mastermind says to place a Master Strike in one spot and the other Mastermind says to place it in some other spot, the current player chooses the order, you do one, and then you do the other. Yes, this may nullify the Master Strike effect of some Masterminds in a Multiple Masterminds context, but I don't think we should "retcon" the Master Strike effects of older Masterminds without an official clarification or errata.

Seriously. Who do you think Upper Deck is? Marvel? laugh
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