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Where Eagles Dare» Forums » General

Subject: Undecided between GTS (Where Eagles Dare) and CSS (Guam) rss

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Przemek B
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Hi

I’m looking for a good game at company scale, and narrowed my choices down to GTS: Where Eagles Dare and CSS Guam: Return to Glory. Would anyone owning both care to compare them?

Some specific questions for comparison:
1) Units - I like when units have more soul to them, e.g. specific weapon types, ranges, armour, TQ. At a glance Eagles seem to be more promising, with diverse units (US and British troops, variable quality Germans, various Armour), whilst Guam seems to be more ‘standard Marines’ vs ‘standard Japaneese’, with not much unit diversity
2) Supporting Units - Quite like the solution for supporting units for CSS. Does it reduce the clutter on the map? Heard that ‘stacks of doom’ are unlikely in Guam, what about Eagles?
3) Markers – I like lower variability on the markers. How do the game compare, both in counters sorting (many types) and in practice (e.g. large variability in use often).
4) How fiddly are the ‘usual’ rules, e.g. move / combat / ZoC / LoS? How both systems compare to each other?
5) Are there many ‘fiddly’ game-specific / scenario-specific rules? E.g. from looking at the counters, fortification markers in Guam seem to provide Combat DRM / TQ. Are there any more rules behind the scenes?
6) How diverse tactical situations available are?
7) How good the Vassal mods are for both games?
8) Finally, how both compare to Operation Dauntless?

In general, I’m looking for a game with a theme, good diversity of units and tactical situations (Eagles seem to have advantage in here), but also (relatively) streamlined, with less rules overhead & less jumping between rulebooks / charts & tables.

Also, cross-posted on the other forum
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Austin Richards
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I haven't played CSS yet, so I'll just take a whack at some of the questions from the GTS point-of-view.

1) CSS is meant to be a little simpler than GTS, so there's more variety in the weapon types of WED.
2) You tend to avoid big stacks in GTS, because there's a bonus when shooting at hexes with a lot of units.
3) There's a number of markers in GTS, but their effects are shown on the markers, so you don't have to remember what gets modified by +1 or whatever.
4) I don't think GTS is that fiddly most of the time, but...
5) there are a few fiddly exceptions in WED.
6) WED will have infantry v infantry, and combined arms vs combined arms, both sides will attack and defend.
7) Haven't used them, but I think very good for WED.
8) No idea.
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Runs with scissors
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If table size is an issue at all I'd go with Guam. On second thought I'd go with neither. Guam is 5'x6' and it's the smaller of the two.

 
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Przemek B
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Thanks for the feedback Austin, you've alleviated some concerns regarding stacking & markers, and it seems the game will provide quite a few tactical challenges with a good variety of units.

And table size is not an issue - I have two young daughters running about the place, so taking over the table for any time longer then evening is not an option. VASSAL will be my port of call.

Cheers
 
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Rosecrans man
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Austin and Keraunos,

Regarding the point about both sides attacking and defending in WED. While the Japanese are on the operational defensive, there is plenty of opportunity for tactical counterattack. In fact, some of the scenarios feature the Japanese attacking. Case in point, the Shattered Jewels scenario in Saipan. Ross assures the player in his design notes that, given the games’ company level scale, it provides the Japanese with plenty of offensive opportunities.

I’ve often heard ETO afficionados bitch about the Japanese not being able to do anything rather than react, in most cases, nothing could be further from the truth, given how many times they counterattacked in the real battles. If they actually studied the Pacific War as much as they do the War in Europe, they’d know that.
 
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Przemek B
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the view is not constrained to ETO afficionados - I've read a lot on maval ww2 PTO, and there authors paint a picture of pretty one-sided narrative, with Marines generally attacking and opponents generally defending, and only desperately counter-attacking when about to be overwhelmed. Think this comes more due to importance naval historians when describing PTO, which stress how navy/air firepower constrained japaneese maneuver. Like I said in the other thread, this view contrasts sharply with ETO, where both sides were constantly on the move. As you've pointed out, WED provide operational exception - aim is to constrain XXX C to the road and push it forward
 
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Rosecrans man
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There were several battles in the Pacific that included Japanese attacks very early in an island invasion.

The Japanese were on the offensive through the first half of Guadalcanal (tactically and operationally).

The Japanese attacked the US Army on Biak, until the Americans were reinforced. On Tinian, the Japanese counterattacked on the first night, which was premature, but some elements reached the HQ of the Marine artillery and badly disrupted their chain of command for a while. The Japanese attacked several times on Saipan, early and late. Early on they tried to exploit the problems the Marines had in securing their beachheads. A significant attack aimed at Garapan (in the NW) was combined infantry and tanks. The Marines did receive support from naval air power there. And as I stated in the other thread, the last ditch attack at the end of the battle pushed an Army regiment several hundred yards to the northern beaches. And the Japanese attacked with tanks on the first night at Peleliu, and several times thereafter. Leyte was also quite fluid. They looked for opportunities and usually took them.
 
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Przemek B
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I remember reading about Biak – short but interesting battle, involving combined arms on both sides, cave fighting and capturing fortified positions. Personally, I’d love a Campaign game about Guadalcanal at company scale. The see-saw nature of whoever was supplied being on the offensive, variety of troops involved (in quality and armament) over 7 months period would make it pretty interesting to play. Leyte / Luzon liberation would be quite epic as well.
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