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Gloomhaven» Forums » Rules

Subject: [Spoilers] Question about 3 spears, lvl 6 card rss

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Alejandro
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I am surprised I am asking this, but due to the card wording I feel it is necessary. Spoilers for 3 spears lvl 6 card follows.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
I recently came across the Quiver of Arrows card,

The card states it will Add a target for each ranged attack made, it does not provide any additional restrictions.
Does this mean it will actually add a target for each target already in the attack (ex 2 additional targets for a target 2 ranged attack or when targeting 2 monsters with an AOE). My logic tells me this would make the card too powerful, but then again if I were to take the Spellweaver's Crackling Air as an example I would be spending a slot for each targeted enemy on Crackling Air, which leads me to believe the Quiver of Arrows might actually be used on each ranged attack.


Bonus question, and the one that made me think about the above card initially, how does it interact with the following card for Triangles class (level 3 spoilers for Triangles):

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Chain lightning:
 
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Miles Hubble
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I’m guessing you haven’t encountered any other add Target effects before. Add target can never add more than one extra attack to an attack action. So if it was a single target attack, it is now target 2. If it was target three, it is now target four. In the case of aoe hex attacks, you perform an additional single attack within the range of the attack on an enemy not currently being targeted. In cases like the one you brought up, or for example the Spellweaver’s impaling eruption, you perform the initial attack again, but not any of its additional effects (like targeting all enemies on the path to the target in my example).
 
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Alejandro
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I do understand add target effects. My question is if the Quiver of Arrows would trigger for each ranged attack, in my view each attack in a multi target attack counts as a separate ranged attack, that's why I brought crackling air to the table, what's the difference between the attack listed there and the one referenced on the mentioned card? Both should trigger on each individual attack.

Quote:
Add target can never add more than one extra attack to an attack action.

Can I have a source for this? I understand add targets can stack, if I were to draw 2 add targets modifier cards for example or use items to add additional targets I would expect to be able to add 1 per modifier/item and not be limited to only 1.

The add target rules restrict the additional targets from creating more targets, but do allow for other targets to be created by other means.
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Jussi-Pekka Jokinen
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Uberdemnebelmeer wrote:
Add target can never add more than one extra attack to an attack action.


I'd also like to see some evidence to back this up.
 
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Nyles Breecher
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From a balance perspective, I think it's pretty clear you just get one extra target.

If you just count each "attack," then this card would effectively combo with itself. Since every time you added a target you'd be performing a "new attack," thereby letting you add another extra target, and so on.

As for the triangle card you mentioned, look at this thread: https://boardgamegeek.com/article/28323998#28323998
 
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Alejandro
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Quote:
From a balance perspective, I think it's pretty clear you just get one extra target.

I understand the balance implications, which do seem to be OP with some parties, though the added targets are probably more limited by the game itself, given the fact adding 2 or more targets will be hard in most situations. Even then I am asking for a ruling perspective and not a balance or personal perspective.


Quote:
All added effects and conditions of the attack action
are applied to the target, as well, except for effects that would result in additional targets outside
of the original added target (e.g., area attacks).

I don't think it would add more targets for itself, it's a bit loose but I do consider the following ruling from the rule book would prevent that (p22 on Add target):
Quote:
All added effects and conditions of the attack action
are applied to the target, as well, except for effects that would result in additional targets outside
of the original added target (e.g., area attacks).
 
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Karl Roe
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I'd say that you do add a target for each attack (if the adjacent ally had an area attack, say). The card says if the adjacent ally performs a range attack, that ally gains ADD TARGET for the attack. That's different than saying the ally gains add target for the attack action. Imagine if you had a multi-target attack and you drew an "add target" rolling modifier for each target. In this case a target-three attack could become a target-six attack. Of course the limitation is whether there are that many targets within range.

True a single ADD TARGET only adds one more target, but the card the OP refers to seems to provide ADD TARGET more than once.

Remember that ADD TARGET cannot ever result in the same enemy being attacked twice. Given how situational the action is (your ally has to be adjacent), and that you also lose the card, and that it's a level 6 card, and that that's the only function of the card, I don't think it's too overpowered that you could potentially add several targets once in a while.

 
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Alejandro
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An update here, we are not using the card for our character. But I would still like to have a more official answer for this issue.

After some extensive research my conclusion is it triggers only once for each ranged attack ability, here is my thought process:

If an adjacent ally performs a ranged attack
This is the trigger and key, what we need to know here is what counts as performing a ranged attack.

Perform is a keyword used all over the rule book it refers to actions, abilities and even events and other stuff done outside scenarios. One of the first instances is here, referring to actions (emphasis is mine) p7:
Quote:
Playing ability cards is what allows a character to perform actions in a scenario. Each round players choose
two ability cards and use the top action of one card and the bottom action of the other card, resulting in two
actions for each player on his or her turn
.

Here we have something we already know each action is performed only once for the top part and once for the bottom part. The rulebook later goes on to state each action may contain several separate abilities.

Another example this time for attack abilities p11:
Quote:
Any time an Attack ability is performed, a separate attack modifier card is drawn for each individual target of the attack.

The attack ability is performed once, and then we process each target, this will be important later.

Finally the one which matters the most to us is where we find the key to what performing a ranged attack means, p19 (emphasis mine):
Quote:
An “Attack X” ability allows a character to do a base X amount of damage to an enemy within their range. Figures cannot attack their allies. There are two types of attacks: ranged and melee.

Ranged attacks are accompanied by a “Range Y” value, which means any enemy within Y hexes can be targeted by the attack. Any ranged attack targeting an adjacent enemy gains Disadvantage against that target (see Advantage and Disadvantage on pp. 20–21 for details).

First important point we are tying attack abilities with ranged attacks.

We head over to p21 for a last clue (on advantage and disadvantage, emphasis mine):
Quote:
Instances of Advantage and Disadvantage are mostly gained by specific character or monster abilities. However, any ranged attack targeting an adjacent enemy also gains Disadvantage for that target. Instances of Advantage or Disadvantage don’t stack, and if an attack has instances of both Advantage and Disadvantage, they cancel out each other and the attack is performed normally.

We get the second key point here, the rulebook specifically states the ranged attack will gain disadvantage for that target, now this we know, but the way it is written is key for us. The rule book treats the instance of the ranged attack as one ability and does not separate it into several more ranged attacks, instead it separates it into several targets (like the above mentioned attack ability).

Finally I took a look at multi target and area of effect, of note here p21.
Quote:
Also note that each target constitutes a separate attack (drawing its own attack modifier card), but all attacks together make up a single attack ac on.

Further explained in the FAQ entry:
Quote:
What's the difference between an attack and an attack action?
And attack is a single attack on a single target that flips over a single attack modifier card. And attack action constitutes all the attacks made with a specific action (entire top or bottom half of an ability card). If your attack action is, say, "Attack 3," then there is only one attack in your attack action. If it is "Attack 2, Target 3," then your attack action consists of three separate attacks.

I do believe the way this card is phrased mentioning performing an attack is different enough to warrant a separation from the attack definition mentioned above. Other cards like Crackling Air, for example which simply trigger on each attack have a very different wording.


With this I feel safe to say multi target ranged attack actions would only be processed once for each main line ranged attack ability.

Feel free to further improve the discussion but please do so with concrete official examples.
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Christopher Goss
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Well said, Alejandro. I've reached the same conclusion that you have, that Quiver of Arrows triggers on an adjacent ally's ranged attack [ability]. This is technically different from the Cragheart's Backup Ammunition, which triggers on a ranged attack action. So far as I have seen there is no action that contains multiple ranged attack abilities (let me know if you have seen any). If there were such an action, Quiver of Arrows should add an extra target to each ranged attack ability. I'm not sure what Backup Ammunition would do...

Triforce class spoilers:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
And the final piece of the puzzle is to treat Chain Lightning's top action as containing one single (complicated) ranged attack ability. I believe this is a more natural reading than the alternative: that Chain Lightning contains 3-4 distinct ranged attack abilities with dependent attack values and targeting restrictions. So Quiver of Arrows would provide one additional target on the main Attack 4, Range 3 attack (possibly boosted by Light consumption) and would not add any subsequent targets.


This is how my group will be resolving the interaction going forward, but I'd love to get an official response.
 
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Karl Roe
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alecm88 wrote:

With this I feel safe to say multi target ranged attack actions would only be processed once for each main line ranged attack ability.


I'm not sure what you mean by "processed" here. If an attack action has multiple targets, each target must be attacked separately, with different attack modifiers, etc. It sounds like you already know this, yet somehow we're drawing different conclusions.

The operative terms here are "attack" versus "attack action". You actually quote the relevant passage in the rule book, p. 21:
"...each target constitutes a separate attack... but all attacks together make up a single attack action."

Quiver of Arrows says it is triggered by an attack, not an attack action. It also says the ally gains add target for the attack, not the attack action. I'm not drawing from an official ruling on this, but it seems reasonable given the wording on the card that ADD TARGET would trigger once for each target of a multi-target attack (each target constitutes an "attack", the whole ability is an "attack action").

Other cards in the game are careful to distinguish between "attack" and "attack action". For example...
War Hammer: During your melee attack, add STUN to the entire Attack action.
VERSUS... (Prosperity level 2 item)
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Stun Powder: During your attack, add STUN to a single attack.


Anyway, it's an interesting question. I wonder what others think.
 
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tibbles von tibbleton
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It says each ranged attack, not each ranged attack action. So by RAW each attack (card flip) should result in another Add Target.

As noted, this is not as OP as it sounds for AoE effects because just like any other Add Target effects, you cannot hit the same same target twice. Best case is turning hitting half the targets in range in to hitting all the targets in range.

Side note, while I can't think of any ranged attack action cards with multiple ranged attack abilities, due to various class powers it is possible to create the equiv situation and have several ranged attack abilities going off in a single turn.
 
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Nyles Breecher
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If the intent was to double the amount of targets, I think the wording would say this to be explicitly clear. Again, if this ability truly triggers off every attack, then the card combos with itself to allow your ally to attack every target in range of their attack. Which, I think, this should clearly not be the intent. There's nothing in the rules that would prevent this. Earlier there was a quoted rule:

Quote:
All added effects and conditions of the attack action
are applied to the target, as well, except for effects that would result in additional targets outside
of the original added target (e.g., area attacks).


Which doesn't apply in this case due to timing. The "add target" triggers off attacks; it's not part of the attack ability itself, so there's no reason it would be excluded by this rule. This quoted rule is saying that anything which adds an extra target adds exactly one extra target, regardless of whatever the ability says. This helps clarify that adding an extra target isn't copying the entire ability again. (Which would be the case if you were getting a second area of effect, for example.)

I think you're reading a bit too much into the wording. The cards in many cases have clear wordings, but in many other cases do not. With a diverse set of abilities in the game, the rules terminology is not robust enough to be crystal clear in every case.

For example, if "ranged attack action" was mentioned, every single attack would need to have add target. Including the attacks which were generated from the add target. Why? Look at minor power potion:

Quote:
During your attack, add +1 Attack to your entire Attack action.


We already know when multiple attacks happen with a power potion, each one gets the bonus. So by the same logic if an entire "attack action" had add target, every individual attack during this action gets an add target. But those attacks on added targets are during the same attack action, so they get add target, and so on.

I think the simplest interpretation of the card is this:

Quote:
Imagine every card has "Target X" printed on it (X can be 1). Quiver of arrows says that allies performing ranged attack actions while adjacent to you turn their "Target X" into "Target X+1."


On a power note, I don't see how you guys think doubling targets isn't obviously overpowered when this is a persistent card that stays during the entire scenario. Adding just a single extra target for adjacent allies on their ranged is already strong. Even if you just get three added extra targets for the scenario (in reality it's almost always going to be more), that's already better than most lost cards in the game...
 
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tibbles von tibbleton
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nbreecher wrote:
If the intent was to double the amount of targets, I think the wording would say this to be explicitly clear. Again, if this ability truly triggers off every attack, then the card combos with itself to allow your ally to attack every target in range of their attack. Which, I think, this should clearly not be the intent. There's nothing in the rules that would prevent this. Earlier there was a quoted rule:

Quote:
All added effects and conditions of the attack action
are applied to the target, as well, except for effects that would result in additional targets outside
of the original added target (e.g., area attacks).


Which doesn't apply in this case due to timing. The "add target" triggers off attacks; it's not part of the attack ability itself, so there's no reason it would be excluded by this rule. This quoted rule is saying that anything which adds an extra target adds exactly one extra target, regardless of whatever the ability says. This helps clarify that adding an extra target isn't copying the entire ability again. (Which would be the case if you were getting a second area of effect, for example.)

I think you're reading a bit too much into the wording. The cards in many cases have clear wordings, but in many other cases do not. With a diverse set of abilities in the game, the terminology is not robust enough to be crystal clear in every case.

I think the simplest interpretation is this:

Quote:
Imagine every card has "Target X" printed on it (X can be 1). Quiver of arrows says that allies performing ranged attack actions while adjacent to you turn their "Target X" into "Target X+1."


I'm pretty sure there's a rule written somewhere about things not triggering themselves, so there's no way to generate unlimited Add Targets from Add Target shots. Or even if there isn't one written, I think we can agree there is meant to be.

What you quoted about not copying effects that add targets answers the Triangle question. It will only add 1 attack, it will not copy the chain.

And I think you have it reversed for the "Add an extra target to your entire attack action." suggestion. That is saying to add an extra target to the action as a whole. It would say "Add Add Target to your entire attack action." if you wanted the Add Target effect to apply to every attack in the attack action.
 
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Isaac Childres
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Admittedly, this card is poorly worded. It should read: "All allies gain ADD TARGET when performing ranged attack abilities while adjacent to you." As in, adjacent allies gain ADD TARGET for each attack ability (not each individual attack).

And this is correct regarding the Triangle class:
aku chi wrote:
Triforce class spoilers:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
And the final piece of the puzzle is to treat Chain Lightning's top action as containing one single (complicated) ranged attack ability. I believe this is a more natural reading than the alternative: that Chain Lightning contains 3-4 distinct ranged attack abilities with dependent attack values and targeting restrictions. So Quiver of Arrows would provide one additional target on the main Attack 4, Range 3 attack (possibly boosted by Light consumption) and would not add any subsequent targets.
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Tim Rogers
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Cephalofair wrote:
Admittedly, this card is poorly worded. It should read: "All allies gain ADD TARGET when performing ranged attack abilities while adjacent to you." As in, adjacent allies gain ADD TARGET for each attack ability (not each individual attack).


How does this interact with the Spellweaver's Impaling Eruption?
Attack 3 ranged 4
Additionally, target all enemies on the path to the primary target. Gain 1 xp for each enemy targetted.

To me, you'd gain the full effect again as the attack 3 range 4 gets the add target, therefore you could draw your range 4 path again to the new target, potentially attacking all enemies along the way to the new target. You could therefore potentially attack 8 targets with attack 3 gaining 8xp. I assumed though (but couldn't reason why) that you couldn't target the same enemy along the path to the primary target again with the second attack.

How do you interpret this one?
 
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Dan Baker
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TimRogers wrote:
Cephalofair wrote:
Admittedly, this card is poorly worded. It should read: "All allies gain ADD TARGET when performing ranged attack abilities while adjacent to you." As in, adjacent allies gain ADD TARGET for each attack ability (not each individual attack).


How does this interact with the Spellweaver's Impaling Eruption?
Attack 3 ranged 4
Additionally, target all enemies on the path to the primary target. Gain 1 xp for each enemy targetted.

To me, you'd gain the full effect again as the attack 3 range 4 gets the add target, therefore you could draw your range 4 path again to the new target, potentially attacking all enemies along the way to the new target. You could therefore potentially attack 8 targets with attack 3 gaining 8xp. I assumed though (but couldn't reason why) that you couldn't target the same enemy along the path to the primary target again with the second attack.

How do you interpret this one?


“Add Target” always adds exactly one target. It doesn’t copy any other effects that add targets. So Impaling Eruption would be one 4-hex path plus one additional target within range 4, not two 4-hex paths.
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