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Holland '44: Operation Market-Garden» Forums » Rules

Subject: Demi battalions in river assaults? rss

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john douglass

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I need some clarifications about demi-battalions.
1. I understand that two stacked demi-battalions count as one unit for combat purposes, hence two battalions of demi-battalions(four units total) plus a free stacker can attack or defend. Correct?
2. Can both parts of a demi-battalion pair be considered as one unit for purposes of the river assault rules? Thus one complete battalion (2 pieces) stacked together on the riverbank can be joined by a engineer and another battalion pair (two more pieces) and make an assault?
3. During extended movement can battalion pairs remain stacked together? Thus two battalion pairs (four units) using extended movement can stay stacked in two different hexes instead of having to spread out to four hexes.

I've love this game clocking well over 30 hours so far. But when the rules move back and fourth between stacking points and 'units ' I have found this part of the game the most difficult part to internalize.
 
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Myk Deans
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I think the critical phrase is at the start of the second sentence in 6.3: 'For stacking purposes...' Therefore, they only count as a single unit for the determination of whether the hex is overstacked (i.e. 6.1) and whether the negative effects of 6.4 apply. In all other cases they are not regarded as a single unit.

1. Yes; the hex is not overstacked, so there are no negative limitations from 6.4

2. No; they would be considered as two separate units

3. No, they would be considered as two separate units

My $0.02, I hope it helps some.

 
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john douglass

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Thanks Myk, I agree that line 6.3: 'For stacking purposes...' is important but it is also confusing; cases where limitations are defined by 'units' or stacking points get muddy. 6.3 is really about the concentration of combat on attack and defense. It seems overstacking penalties are more tied to the sum of stacking points in excess of nine.

Allow me to describe a situation to illustrate my understanding of stacking.

- A hex has ten 1 step units ( non are free stacking, all are decimated battalions)It is a crazy situation but bear with me.
- In attack or defense only two of the hapless battalions can attack or defend. The other eight have to watch(remember no free stackers)This situation sucks because of the feeble attack/defense of the participating units.
- If there was no combat and this stack of ten units didn't move, then one unit would be destroyed because of excessive stacking.(one step over nine)
- Now, if the stack of 10 units included four demi-battalions(two sets of pairs) then the stack is better off since four units can attack and defend. Any excessive stacking over nine steps still would kill one unit in this example. The demi-battalions didn't impact the penalty at all.

Do I have it right so far?

The demi-battalions seem about combat concentration not relieving 'stacking' issues. This understanding led me to ask the question 'can demi-battalions pair up to increase the combat concentrations for river assaults?'
 
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Myk Deans
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Having re-read 9.5.3 I'm going to change my mind and say that, yes, you can stack the demi-battalions (i.e. 4 counters in your example) plus the engineer and have them all attack across the river in one combat. (As long as one of the counters started the turn adjacent to the river.)

In the text above the graphic on page 9 it says '...using the normal rules of combat.' Plus I'd misread 9.5.3 anyway.

So they are not overstacked, they can all attack together, and they can all advance over the river if successful.

Go ahead, kick that German Player's butt.
 
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john douglass

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sounds good!
 
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Ivano Rosa
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jsdouglass wrote:


- A hex has ten 1 step units ( non are free stacking, all are decimated battalions)It is a crazy situation but bear with me.


You cannot start the Combat Phase with a stack of 10 steps...

jsdouglass wrote:


- In attack or defense only two of the hapless battalions can attack or defend. The other eight have to watch(remember no free stackers)This situation sucks because of the feeble attack/defense of the participating units.


Yes... with great penalties. Road Congestion, etc... After the bottleneck Joe's Bridge/Eindhoven you should not have units in overstack (ok status of the bridges allowing..). Basically an ovestacked hex helps a lot the para units in "der Kessel" of Arnhem and Nijmegen.


jsdouglass wrote:


- If there was no combat and this stack of ten units didn't move, then one unit would be destroyed because of excessive stacking.(one step over nine)


At the end of MOVEMENT phase you must remove 1 step... unless during Combat you advance units in a hex to have more than 10 steps... but why?
You can end a RETREAT in Overstack with no penalty..

jsdouglass wrote:


- Now, if the stack of 10 units included four demi-battalions(two sets of pairs) then the stack is better off since four units can attack and defend. Any excessive stacking over nine steps still would kill one unit in this example. The demi-battalions didn't impact the penalty at all.


not sure what do you mean here...


Hint for Demi-Battalions... ALL units of German 107th Panzer Brigade must be stacked... a mighty Armored Punch.
 
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john douglass

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Oops! Thanks for the correction on when remove excessive stacking!blush
I was wondering Ivano, what is your take on the central question of the post- Do demi-battalion pairs count as one unit for purposes of river assaults?
 
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Ivano Rosa
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I think yes... they are "one" unit
 
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Burnt Norton
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Well, in this case they should also be allowed to use Extended Movement together. It seems logical to me, especially if they started the movement stacked together and therefore counted as “one unit”. more tothe point, if the two para battalions portrayed in the examle of page 7 were instead two glider demi-battalions, they could end up stacked together.
 
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Jorge ML
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Hi,
I'm not so sure. Rules state that these semi-battallions are considered as one unit for stacking purposes, NOT for combat purposes...
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