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Twilight Imperium (Fourth Edition)» Forums » Rules

Subject: Blowing Up Transports rss

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Robert Rodger
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So here's what happened:

A player moved into a system with a transport carrying two ground units. The only ship in the system was an opposing player's carrier.

We had a space battle. The defending player got lucky and blew up the attacking carrier. The attacking player scored no hits.

The attacking player then said that since the ground forces were in the space hex they move on to the planetary invasion phase.

The defending player then reached for the rule book.

What should happen next?
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Avery Bailey
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The defender will point to rule 67.
Quote:
If the winner of the combat has fighters or ground forces in
space that exceed his ships’ capacity in the active system, he
must destroy the excess units of his choice.
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Scott Lewis
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The ground forces are killed before the invasion. Capacity is ignored during the space combat itself, but as soon as the space combat ends, you must check for it. The Invasion step is after space combat, so the "ignore capacity" exception has ended.

Some references:

16.2: "The combined capacity values of a player's ships in a system determine the number of fighters and ground forces he can have in that system's space area."

16.3 Bullet 2 "A player's fighters and ground forces can exceed capacity during combat. At the end of combat, he must destroy the excess units."

67.9 (Updated via Living Rules): "Space combat ends immediately when only one player - or neither player - has a ship in the active system."

78.3, 78.4 - Space Combat and Invasion are two separate steps. Ground Combat is a sub-step of Invasion (44.4), so there is a clear distinction between the space combat and ground combat.


So taken together: When the combat ends, the 16.3 exception does too. 16.2 then kicks in, and the excess ground forces (in this case, all of them) are destroyed.
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Scott Lewis
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Avemo3 wrote:
The defender will point to rule 67.
Quote:
If the winner of the combat has fighters or ground forces in
space that exceed his ships’ capacity in the active system, he
must destroy the excess units of his choice.

In this case, that rule isn't quite sufficient, because the winner of the combat was the defender, so it doesn't (directly) discuss what happens with the attacker (loser's) GFs.

However, the rule quoted doesn't refer to the losing player because the losing player will have lost all his fighters already, and will always lose all GFs remaining because their capacity is zero
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Avery Bailey
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Or even better
Quote:
16.3 If a player has more fighters and ground forces in the space area
of a system than the total capacity of his ships in that system,
he must destroy the excess units of his choice.
• Ground forces on planets do not count against capacity.
• A player’s fighters and ground forces can exceed capacity
during combat. At the end of combat, he must destroy the
excess units.
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Ragh Gavar
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Agreed on all points. It might be better if it said “A player’s fighters and ground forces can exceed capacity during space combat. At the end of space combat, he must destroy the excess units,” though.
 
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Robert Rodger
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Yeah, the real debate was when does combat end. The attackers argument is space combat and invasion was all one combat so you don't check for capacity until after ground combat.
 
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Loose Cannon
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so, what Does this mean?

Example:

I take in 2 Transports with 2 ground forces each.

one is destroyed.
but, my other can hold all 4 GF's. so all four GF's can invade?

Or are they stuck on the ship that brought them into the system?
(this is how we have always played TI3)


ALSO:
If the NEKRO Wins space combat, then ground combat, do they get 2 TECHS?
 
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Paul Couch
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SlimJim wrote:
so, what Does this mean?

Example:

I take in 2 Transports with 2 ground forces each.

one is destroyed.
but, my other can hold all 4 GF's. so all four GF's can invade?

Or are they stuck on the ship that brought them into the system?
(this is how we have always played TI3)


ALSO:
If the NEKRO Wins space combat, then ground combat, do they get 2 TECHS?

You played that correctly in TI3, but it has changed for TI4. The GF's are not on any particular ship in combat, but must be transported once combat ends.
As for the Nekro, if they destroyed units in two (or three or four) combats in the same action(not including facilities), they get that many techs.
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Loose Cannon
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How about during the PDS attacks?

Do you have to place your GF and Fighters next to the ships they are on, or can they just scuttle to another SHIP with enough Capacity?
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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RARodger wrote:
Yeah, the real debate was when does combat end. The attackers argument is space combat and invasion was all one combat so you don't check for capacity until after ground combat.

The attacker is incorrect. The RRG/Living RR spells out the timing sequence of the turn and space combat is a completely separate step to Invasion, with Ground Combat being a substep of Invasion.

You can also look at the player aids to determine this. Space Combat is Step 3 while Ground Combat is step 4.iv (written as 4.v on current player aids, but this will surely be fixed at some point), so they are clearly separated.

SlimJim wrote:
so, what Does this mean?

Example:

I take in 2 Transports with 2 ground forces each.

one is destroyed.
but, my other can hold all 4 GF's. so all four GF's can invade?

Or are they stuck on the ship that brought them into the system?
(this is how we have always played TI3)


ALSO:
If the NEKRO Wins space combat, then ground combat, do they get 2 TECHS?

Units are only assigned to ships while moving. Thus, all four ground forces stick around. The same is true even if the Carrier is destroyed during Space Cannon Offense.

And yes, Nekro can get two techs if they win both combats. Both have to actually occur, though (meaning there are units present from both sides).
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Jorgen Peddersen
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SlimJim wrote:
How about during the PDS attacks?

Do you have to place your GF and Fighters next to the ships they are on, or can they just scuttle to another SHIP with enough Capacity?


Although Space Cannon Offense is a substep of the movement step, it's only during the move ships substep that you assign units to ships. Pretty much the only times you will see ships take out the ground forces/Fighters they carry is when they go through the gravity rift or you exceed Fleet Supply at the end of your move (and the latter is just wasteful).
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KR P
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Clipper wrote:

RARodger wrote:
Yeah, the real debate was when does combat end. The attackers argument is space combat and invasion was all one combat so you don't check for capacity until after ground combat.

The attacker is incorrect. The RRG/Living RR spells out the timing sequence of the turn and space combat is a completely separate step to Invasion, with Ground Combat being a substep of Invasion.

You can also look at the player aids to determine this. Space Combat is Step 3 while Ground Combat is step 4.iv (written as 4.v on current player aids, but this will surely be fixed at some point), so they are clearly separated.

SlimJim wrote:
so, what Does this mean?

Example:

I take in 2 Transports with 2 ground forces each.

one is destroyed.
but, my other can hold all 4 GF's. so all four GF's can invade?

Or are they stuck on the ship that brought them into the system?
(this is how we have always played TI3)


ALSO:
If the NEKRO Wins space combat, then ground combat, do they get 2 TECHS?

Units are only assigned to ships while moving. Thus, all four ground forces stick around. The same is true even if the Carrier is destroyed during Space Cannon Offense.

And yes, Nekro can get two techs if they win both combats. Both have to actually occur, though (meaning there are units present from both sides).


Just to clarify, Nekro doesn't need to win the combat, they just have to destroy a unit in that combat to qualify for the free tech.
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Jorgen Peddersen
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The_Law_Beckons wrote:
Just to clarify, Nekro doesn't need to win the combat, they just have to destroy a unit in that combat to qualify for the free tech.

True, although they do need to win the first while also destroying something, or else there never will be a ground combat.
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