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Subject: Knight's Push - Clarification/Confirmation rss

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Chris Bowling
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I was initially a bit confused about scoring rows vs. columns in the Knight's push (and the Farmer's push), but I think I've got that down, now. I just want to confirm that I'm understanding one thing correctly. For the Knight's push, you can score from completing a row or column that consists of just one king's seal, correct? That is to say, if there were no seals present and you placed one in the bottom left corner, that would count as completing one row or if you placed one in the upper right corner, that would count as completing one column. I understand that you could not do both in the same action, but I am understanding this correctly, right?
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Chris Warr
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Hanuman47 wrote:
I was initially a bit confused about scoring rows vs. columns in the Knight's push (and the Farmer's push), but I think I've got that down, now. I just want to confirm that I'm understanding one thing correctly. For the Knight's push, you can score from completing a row or column that consists of just one king's seal, correct? That is to say, if there were no seals present and you placed one in the bottom left corner, that would count as completing one row or if you placed one in the upper right corner, that would count as completing one column. I understand that you could not do both in the same action, but I am understanding this correctly, right?


Correct :-)
 
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Joshua Acosta
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Hanuman47 wrote:
...I understand that you could not do both in the same action...


The short answer is YES.
Yes, you can just fill one of those spots to score points for completing a row/column. However, to be clear, you CAN do both. You just cannot SCORE for both a row and a column during the same push/pull action.
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Chris Bowling
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JoshuaAcosta wrote:
Hanuman47 wrote:
...I understand that you could not do both in the same action...


The short answer is YES.
Yes, you can just fill one of those spots to score points for completing a row/column. However, to be clear, you CAN do both. You just cannot SCORE for both a row and a column during the same push/pull action.

Right, I said that in my question (you can't do both in the same action), but perhaps you're referring to something else? Your caveat now has me worried that there is something else I am missing - please clarify.
 
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Darrell Goodridge
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Hanuman47 wrote:
JoshuaAcosta wrote:
Hanuman47 wrote:
...I understand that you could not do both in the same action...


The short answer is YES.
Yes, you can just fill one of those spots to score points for completing a row/column. However, to be clear, you CAN do both. You just cannot SCORE for both a row and a column during the same push/pull action.

Right, I said that in my question (you can't do both in the same action), but perhaps you're referring to something else? Your caveat now has me worried that there is something else I am missing - please clarify.


If you are scoring rows, you can place a seal in both the lower left and upper right to fill rows. But you can't count the lower left as a row filled AND the upper right as a column filled in the same action.


For example,

OOX
XO
X

if that was the layout of the Seals, and X were empty, then you could push and complete 3 rows. I imagine he was speaking of something like that.
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Chris Warr
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Hanuman47 wrote:
JoshuaAcosta wrote:
Hanuman47 wrote:
...I understand that you could not do both in the same action...


The short answer is YES.
Yes, you can just fill one of those spots to score points for completing a row/column. However, to be clear, you CAN do both. You just cannot SCORE for both a row and a column during the same push/pull action.

Right, I said that in my question (you can't do both in the same action), but perhaps you're referring to something else? Your caveat now has me worried that there is something else I am missing - please clarify.


He's just clarifying that you can PLACE seals in both slots on the same action if you like. But as you are aware, you can only SCORE either rows or columns in one action, not both.
 
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Chris Bowling
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poptasticboy wrote:
Hanuman47 wrote:
JoshuaAcosta wrote:
Hanuman47 wrote:
...I understand that you could not do both in the same action...


The short answer is YES.
Yes, you can just fill one of those spots to score points for completing a row/column. However, to be clear, you CAN do both. You just cannot SCORE for both a row and a column during the same push/pull action.

Right, I said that in my question (you can't do both in the same action), but perhaps you're referring to something else? Your caveat now has me worried that there is something else I am missing - please clarify.


He's just clarifying that you can PLACE seals in both slots on the same action if you like. But as you are aware, you can only SCORE either rows or columns in one action, not both.

Ah, yes, I see the distinction. That part was clear to me - I just didn't express it very well in my initial question.

Thanks, everyone, for the elucidation!
 
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Adrian Todea
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I'm still confused.

What about below situation?

X X X

X X

X

So there are no seals in the Nobles Guild. I push two from the Knights Guild and place as below:

X X O

X X

O

Can I score 5 points then? I complete a row and a column, and each seal placed only counted once.
 
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Chris Warr
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tzutzy wrote:
I'm still confused.

What about below situation?

X X X

X X

X

So there are no seals in the Nobles Guild. I push two from the Knights Guild and place as below:

X X O

X X

O

Can I score 5 points then? I complete a row and a column, and each seal placed only counted once.


No, you either count columns OR rows, not both in the same action.
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Zachary Homrighaus
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tzutzy wrote:
I'm still confused.

What about below situation?

X X X

X X

X

So there are no seals in the Nobles Guild. I push two from the Knights Guild and place as below:

X X O

X X

O

Can I score 5 points then? I complete a row and a column, and each seal placed only counted once.


Agree that you cannot score both columns and rows... I've been trying to figure out why this rule is even necessary... I suppose it adds a tiny little bit of strategy to which seals you pick when you purchase them, but it seems to just add more confusion than it's worth. For instance, if you just defined a purchase and fill order (e.g. always empty/fill the first row before removing/filling from the 2nd row) it would result in the same thing.

Unless there is some way to know which seal is which, a smart player should always remove seals in a way that makes it hard for their opponents to score points. Perhaps it opens up the opportunity to cherry pick seals and then immediately follow with a push/pull action to gain an extra VP, but man... there is some unnecessary rules overhead just to allow that 1 VP swing.
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Ponder Stibbons
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poptasticboy wrote:
...

No, you either count columns OR rows, not both in the same action.

that doesn't sound right to me. the rulebook states "you may complete rows or columns, but not both, as a king’s seal may not count twice toward your goal." the given "but not both" seems to support your argument, however it is immediately clarified. since there's no danger of counting the same good in two rows or two columns, the clarification of a good/seal not counting twice must be pointing to an inclusive "rows and/or columns" interpretation. the idea that the clarification is misleadingly redundant and unnecessary does not appeal to me.

therefore, i believe you could score the right-most column and the bottom-most row simultaneously with a single Knight Push.
 
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Darrell Goodridge
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Rumbelow wrote:
poptasticboy wrote:
...

No, you either count columns OR rows, not both in the same action.

that doesn't sound right to me. the rulebook states "you may complete rows or columns, but not both, as a king’s seal may not count twice toward your goal." the given "but not both" seems to support your argument, however it is immediately clarified. since there's no danger of counting the same good in two rows or two columns, the clarification of a good/seal not counting twice must be pointing to an inclusive "rows and/or columns" interpretation. the idea that the clarification is misleadingly redundant and unnecessary does not appeal to me.

therefore, i believe you could score the right-most column and the bottom-most row simultaneously with a single Knight Push.



How are you counting both a column AND a row without violating the "but not both" clause?
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Chris Warr
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Rumbelow wrote:
poptasticboy wrote:
...

No, you either count columns OR rows, not both in the same action.

that doesn't sound right to me. the rulebook states "you may complete rows or columns, but not both, as a king’s seal may not count twice toward your goal." the given "but not both" seems to support your argument, however it is immediately clarified. since there's no danger of counting the same good in two rows or two columns, the clarification of a good/seal not counting twice must be pointing to an inclusive "rows and/or columns" interpretation. the idea that the clarification is misleadingly redundant and unnecessary does not appeal to me.

therefore, i believe you could score the right-most column and the bottom-most row simultaneously with a single Knight Push.


As you stated yourself, the rulebook clearly says "you may complete rows or columns, but not both" it is not ambiguous. The subordinate clause expresses a motivation for the rule (and is probably simply copied from the Farmers guild's push action) but it doesn't remove the rule. It very clearly states "but not both".

For your interpretation to be valid, it would have to say "you may complete rows and/or columns, but a single king's seal may not count twice toward your goal." It doesn't say this, it specifically states "but not both"
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