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Subject: Combat feels like Rock Paper Bunker rss

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Allan Clements
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Played our first game last night, aside from it not ending (ran for 3 hours and we stopped), I was trying to be aggressive with the Orcs, and combat seemed like a rock, paper, scissors, so I was attacking with similar strength armies thinking I could possibly win.

However, I quickly realized that combat is almost entirely deterministic, and defense has a huge advantage. You essentially cannot win by attacking with less strength than your opponent (you need at least 2 more strength to win a fight)

What we concluded was:
Barricade will always win defensive fights of similar strength.

It gives +3 strength, which beats all attack cards, aside from those it mentions, in which case it gives +7 or +6.

Against charge which is +5, barricade gives +7, so it loses unless you have 3 more strength than your opponent.

Against siege it gives +6, which is already 2 more than siege gives.

So in the end attacking with equal armies was a loss before cards were even chosen.

Is combat supposed to favor the defender so heavily? Are the cards meant to be completely meaningless for the outcome of the fight unless you have 2 more strength in the fight than your opponent from the start?

There is no card which cancels barricade, or gives bonuses against it, all the other cards interact with each other.

(I know the cards have resource costs, but the defender can pay for barricade with units if needed and still always lose less than the attacker does for losing)
 
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Mike Kettley
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Conscripts does give a +2 bonus against Barricade.
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Chris Postema
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What Mike said, and also, attacking with equal strength armies SHOULD favor the defending, because they are...defending. I don't think there is any issue here. Attack when you have the edge is the best approach.
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Your Mama
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Attacking is more about timing, and taking advantage of opportunities.

You want to attack lone or coupled serfs. Or attack a similar strengthened army just after the other player has spend a bunch of resources, because now they can's afford to pay for the stronger tactics cards.

Also, with the orcs and attacking,the Barracks give your warriors +1 attack, and the Blood tent basically makes the opposing army's serfs a net +0. My 2 orc warriors and 2 serfs would be a 10, while the opponents would be just a 6. So your similar sized army should have a power advantage, and if you time it right the opponent will only have 1-2 good options for tactics cards that they can afford.


Lastly, us spells the turn the odds in you favor.
 
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Philip Moerenhout
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That's where combat spells and hero abilities come in.
Armies of equal strength should always favour the defender. Nothi g wrong there imo.
 
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Foster Haskell
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As orcs you also have the Berserker, which prevents defenders from using barricade. Also, yes, defender should win ties.
 
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Ivan Alaiz
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Remember also that attacking is incentivized enough since it’s very rewarding VP wise, I think it’s natural that attacking comes at an expense
 
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Allan Clements
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ok. Next time we play I will make sure to mention that you cannot win an attack without 2 more strength, even though the cards at first glance seem like it should be possible.
 
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Phil Schmidt
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I'd also like to add that there is more to outplaying an opponent than simply 'combat'. My only game was a 1v1, and my opponent, knowing about this barricade idea, stacked up a bunch of spaces. I didn't know any better, so I spread out all over the place.

As a consequence, I had a tough time attacking him, and he had a really easy time attacking me, BUT I was super rich by comparison. He was getting income from 3 spaces, while I was getting income from 4-6. By sailing over to my continent he could win a fight, but it didn't stop my income that much, and he had to use first strike or risk dying to conscripts, so he couldn't afford to walk all over me. Even with him attacking a spot, I was getting about 50% more income, and was able to follow any actions he did and tech up. I got to level 3 main and that pretty much sealed my lead because I could attack into one of his few precious locations, and if he paid for a battle card, he couldn't afford to upgrade his main. If he let me win, it would cripple one of his resources for next turn. Meanwhile I had better abilities to work out small advantages here and there. While he earned more points from battle, I ended up having a lot more points overall, especially since I got to decide when the game would end. He was ahead for most of the game, but couldn't trigger the end. I could, but I didn't until I could bring it back.

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Steve Malczak
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Also a minor reminder is that you can't play Barricade if you only have Serfs defending. So there should be some armies you can pick off that are only out there gathering.

But really when I look at it, needing +2 base strength over the defender seems OK considering the points earned from combat. If you could easily win at 50/50 attacking would be a complete no-brainer. As it is, it's still an effective way to convert resources into VPs but you have to stay somewhat massed to do it effectively (which in turns cuts down on your resource potential and some end-game VPs for region control).
 
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Matt Smith
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skies wrote:
I'd also like to add that there is more to outplaying an opponent than simply 'combat'. My only game was a 1v1, and my opponent, knowing about this barricade idea, stacked up a bunch of spaces. I didn't know any better, so I spread out all over the place.

As a consequence, I had a tough time attacking him, and he had a really easy time attacking me, BUT I was super rich by comparison. He was getting income from 3 spaces, while I was getting income from 4-6. By sailing over to my continent he could win a fight, but it didn't stop my income that much, and he had to use first strike or risk dying to conscripts, so he couldn't afford to walk all over me. Even with him attacking a spot, I was getting about 50% more income, and was able to follow any actions he did and tech up. I got to level 3 main and that pretty much sealed my lead because I could attack into one of his few precious locations, and if he paid for a battle card, he couldn't afford to upgrade his main. If he let me win, it would cripple one of his resources for next turn. Meanwhile I had better abilities to work out small advantages here and there. While he earned more points from battle, I ended up having a lot more points overall, especially since I got to decide when the game would end. He was ahead for most of the game, but couldn't trigger the end. I could, but I didn't until I could bring it back.


I had this exact game today. I played a 2-faction game myself to see how it would go when using Wandering Nomads. The Dwarves clumped up, while the Orcs spread out. Before I knew it, the Orcs superior income led to a snowball effect. The Orcs starting attacking the nomads, gaining VP and extra workers for following/mustering. By the time the Dwarves realized they were too far behind the curve and starting attacking the Orcs, the Orcs were too strong, having already upgraded their CC to level 2. The Dwarves were able to close the VP gap by attacking and playing Seige/Conscripts, but the Orcs superior resources allowed them to build 3 towers, then upgrade their CC to level 3 on the final round. It was a total runaway for the Orcs.
 
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Bradley Reis
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mvettemagred wrote:
skies wrote:
I'd also like to add that there is more to outplaying an opponent than simply 'combat'. My only game was a 1v1, and my opponent, knowing about this barricade idea, stacked up a bunch of spaces. I didn't know any better, so I spread out all over the place.

As a consequence, I had a tough time attacking him, and he had a really easy time attacking me, BUT I was super rich by comparison. He was getting income from 3 spaces, while I was getting income from 4-6. By sailing over to my continent he could win a fight, but it didn't stop my income that much, and he had to use first strike or risk dying to conscripts, so he couldn't afford to walk all over me. Even with him attacking a spot, I was getting about 50% more income, and was able to follow any actions he did and tech up. I got to level 3 main and that pretty much sealed my lead because I could attack into one of his few precious locations, and if he paid for a battle card, he couldn't afford to upgrade his main. If he let me win, it would cripple one of his resources for next turn. Meanwhile I had better abilities to work out small advantages here and there. While he earned more points from battle, I ended up having a lot more points overall, especially since I got to decide when the game would end. He was ahead for most of the game, but couldn't trigger the end. I could, but I didn't until I could bring it back.


I had this exact game today. I played a 2-faction game myself to see how it would go when using Wandering Nomads. The Dwarves clumped up, while the Orcs spread out. Before I knew it, the Orcs superior income led to a snowball effect. The Orcs starting attacking the nomads, gaining VP and extra workers for following/mustering. By the time the Dwarves realized they were too far behind the curve and starting attacking the Orcs, the Orcs were too strong, having already upgraded their CC to level 2. The Dwarves were able to close the VP gap by attacking and playing Seige/Conscripts, but the Orcs superior resources allowed them to build 3 towers, then upgrade their CC to level 3 on the final round. It was a total runaway for the Orcs.


Don't have the rules in front of me but don't you need the CC to level 3 to build the third tower. For some reason I was thinking the level of the CC also indicated how many towers you could have (as well as how many scribed spells).
 
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Your Mama
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I believe your CC Lv. does dictate how many towers you can have/build.
"A player with a Lv.1 Capital City may only build 1 tower. As the C.C. is upgraded, more towers may be built, 1 additional tower per level (listed on the C.C. Board)." I just checked, the player boards do show this as well, the # of towers and spells you can have increase as your C.C. Lvl increases.


SummerRider wrote:
mvettemagred wrote:
skies wrote:
I'd also like to add that there is more to outplaying an opponent than simply 'combat'. My only game was a 1v1, and my opponent, knowing about this barricade idea, stacked up a bunch of spaces. I didn't know any better, so I spread out all over the place.

As a consequence, I had a tough time attacking him, and he had a really easy time attacking me, BUT I was super rich by comparison. He was getting income from 3 spaces, while I was getting income from 4-6. By sailing over to my continent he could win a fight, but it didn't stop my income that much, and he had to use first strike or risk dying to conscripts, so he couldn't afford to walk all over me. Even with him attacking a spot, I was getting about 50% more income, and was able to follow any actions he did and tech up. I got to level 3 main and that pretty much sealed my lead because I could attack into one of his few precious locations, and if he paid for a battle card, he couldn't afford to upgrade his main. If he let me win, it would cripple one of his resources for next turn. Meanwhile I had better abilities to work out small advantages here and there. While he earned more points from battle, I ended up having a lot more points overall, especially since I got to decide when the game would end. He was ahead for most of the game, but couldn't trigger the end. I could, but I didn't until I could bring it back.


I had this exact game today. I played a 2-faction game myself to see how it would go when using Wandering Nomads. The Dwarves clumped up, while the Orcs spread out. Before I knew it, the Orcs superior income led to a snowball effect. The Orcs starting attacking the nomads, gaining VP and extra workers for following/mustering. By the time the Dwarves realized they were too far behind the curve and starting attacking the Orcs, the Orcs were too strong, having already upgraded their CC to level 2. The Dwarves were able to close the VP gap by attacking and playing Seige/Conscripts, but the Orcs superior resources allowed them to build 3 towers, then upgrade their CC to level 3 on the final round. It was a total runaway for the Orcs.


Don't have the rules in front of me but don't you need the CC to level 3 to build the third tower. For some reason I was thinking the level of the CC also indicated how many towers you could have (as well as how many scribed spells).
 
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