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Subject: Jerseys : KoM, sprint... (expert version) rss

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Vincent Joly
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- Tour de France Table
- Flamme Rouge Table

King of Montain



Points Classification


Flat Stage category :

• Real Flat (0)
• False Flat (2-4)

Hill Stage Category :

• False Flat (2-4) with "finish" tile U
• Hilly (5-8)
• Medium (9-11) without HC

Montain Category :

• Medium (9-11) with "finish" tile U
• Steep/Craggy (12+)
• Stage with HC


Variant Solo : (optional)
if you use Peloton Team, you can use the official Tour de France table.
- Best peloton's rider account for 2 cyclists.
- Last peloton's rider account for 8 cyclists.


Team Classification and Yellow Jersey are manage by the app compagnon.
(You don't need to use the solo variant for this two classifications)


(if you will family version click here)
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Ryan Keane
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Re: Jerseys (KoM, sprint...)
Very cool Vincent. I like your FR KoM table - nice way to break down based on the length of the ascent.

For the points, we need a way based on the FR stage layout to define which is a flat, hill, or mountain stage.

Do you think the 10” time bonuses for 1st/2nd should be modified to better match TdF? I haven’t modified it, because then it wouldn’t be worth even using the app at all.

The problem with the app for calculating team classification is that it does it based on the official Grand Tour 3/2/1 TP system, whereas for TdF it should be the sum of the raw times of your 2 riders, without time bonuses. So you need to track time-without-bonuses separetely on paper.
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Vincent Joly
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Re: Jerseys (KoM, sprint...)
Thanks.

Ryan Keane wrote:
Do you think the 10” time bonuses for 1st/2nd should be modified to better match TdF? I haven’t modified it, because then it wouldn’t be worth even using the app at all.

The problem with the app for calculating team classification is that it does it based on the official Grand Tour 3/2/1 TP system, whereas for TdF it should be the sum of the raw times of your 2 riders, without time bonuses. So you need to track time-without-bonuses separetely on paper.
Keep bonus and keep this awesome app compagnon.

The official TdF Team Classification is the addition time of 3 best riders, and a team have 9 cyclists. So only 1/3 of riders. (The red lantern have no weight on your balance)

I think official Grand Tour rules are not bad to define the best team. Because only best riders take points. And it's always on the finish zone.
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Ryan Keane
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Re: Jerseys (KoM, sprint...)
Vicen wrote:
Thanks.

Ryan Keane wrote:
Do you think the 10” time bonuses for 1st/2nd should be modified to better match TdF? I haven’t modified it, because then it wouldn’t be worth even using the app at all.

The problem with the app for calculating team classification is that it does it based on the official Grand Tour 3/2/1 TP system, whereas for TdF it should be the sum of the raw times of your 2 riders, without time bonuses. So you need to track time-without-bonuses separetely on paper.
Keep bonus and keep this awesome app compagnon.

The official TdF Team Classification is the addition time of 3 best riders, and a team have 9 cyclists. So only 1/3 of riders. (The red lantern have no weight on your balance)

I think official Grand Tour rules are not bad to define the best team. Because only best riders take points. And it's always on the finish zone.


The official rules will probably give the team award to the one whose 2 cyclists are highest combined on the variant Points classification system (official stage TP being roughly equivalent without the differences in stage type). I personally prefer giving the team award to the one that ensured both cyclists lost the least time - both riders never getting dropped from the lead pack each stage will be a winning team even if they didn’t get enough stage wins to be very high on the points classification.

Yes, I believe TdF only takes the times of the top 3 finishers each stage. So stage 1 might be the times for riders A,B,C while stage 2 might be riders A,D,E. Ideally, I think it would be better if they used the times for all 9 riders every stage (or 8 now), but I think they do top 3 to avoid disqualifying teams where 1 or more riders have to drop out, from crashes, illness, etc.

What’s Red lantern in French? Another interesting mistranslation for a special French cycling term - weakest link?
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Vincent Joly
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Re: Jerseys (KoM, sprint...)
"Lanterne rouge" = the wrost rider on the GC.
Maybe "bringing up the rear" in english ?

But wreakness link ("maillon faible") is a good term to name the wrost rider on the team.
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Vincent Joly
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Re: Jerseys (KoM, sprint...)
Ryan Keane wrote:
For the points, we need a way based on the FR stage layout to define which is a flat, hill, or mountain stage.
Maybe this :

Total of uphill spaces:
Flat stage : 0-4
Hill stage : 5-10
Montain stage : 11+
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Ryan Keane
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Re: Jerseys (KoM, sprint...)
Vicen wrote:
Ryan Keane wrote:
For the points, we need a way based on the FR stage layout to define which is a flat, hill, or mountain stage.
Maybe this :

Total of uphill spaces:
Flat stage : 0-4
Hill stage : 5-10
Montain stage : 11+


It could be based on how many of each mountain classification the stage has.

Flat: No HC or C1; no more than 1 C2; no more than 2 C2/3; no more than 3 C3/C4

Hill: No HC; no more than 1 C1; no more than 2 C1/C2; no more than 3 C2/C3; no more than 4 C3; any number of C4

Mountain: Everything else
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Vincent Joly
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Re: Jerseys (KoM, sprint...)
Ryan Keane wrote:
Vicen wrote:
Ryan Keane wrote:
For the points, we need a way based on the FR stage layout to define which is a flat, hill, or mountain stage.
Maybe this :

Total of uphill spaces:
Flat stage : 0-4
Hill stage : 5-10
Montain stage : 11+


It could be based on how many of each mountain classification the stage has.

Flat: No HC or C1; no more than 1 C2; no more than 2 C2/3; no more than 3 C3/C4

Hill: No HC; no more than 1 C1; no more than 2 C1/C2; no more than 3 C2/C3; no more than 4 C3; any number of C4

Mountain: Everything else
Too many hill on your flat stage. I don't agree.
Max two C4 or only one C3. (total : 2-4 spaces)

Exemple :
(total of uphill spaces : 4)
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Vincent Joly
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Re: Jerseys (KoM, sprint...)
advanced rules :

Flat Stage category :

• Real Flat (0)
• False Flat (2-4)

Hill Stage Category :

• False Flat with "finish" tile U
• Hilly (5-8)
• Medium (9-11) without HC

Montain Category :

• Medium with "finish" tile U
• Steep/Craggy (12+)
• Stage with HC
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Ryan Keane
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Sounds good: 2 for best time for the whole team, 1 for 2nd best time for the whole tram. I’m going to make stage 3 a team time trial, Cholet-Cholet, 35 spaces.

Looking at how I classified my TdF 2017 stages (I used the official Le Tour 4-tier system classification they labeled each stage as) with # ascent spaces, # of separate ascents, and range in length of the ascents, for my stage designs (last 70 km):

Flat stages
8 spaces, 3 ascents, range 2-3
4 spaces, 1 ascent
5 spaces, 2 ascents, range 2-3
5 spaces, 1 ascent
4 spaces, 1 ascent
2 spaces, 1 ascent
2 spaces, 1 ascent
0 spaces

Hill stages
7/4/1-3
10/3/3-4
8/1

Medium Mountain stages
17/4/2-6
23/3/3-11
12/2/2-10

High Mountain stages
22/2/6-16
31/3/3-19
18/2/8-10
31/2/13-18
32/2/14-18

So pretty consistent. 1st flat stage should have been hill; 3rd High Mountain should have been Medium Mountain; 2nd Medium Mountain could have been High Mountain, although it didn’t have a 15+ ascent like the other ones.

A good simple breakdown for me based purely on # of ascent spaces would be:
Flat: 0-5
Hill: 6-10
Medium Mountain: 11-20
High Mountain: 21+
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Vincent Joly
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Ryan Keane wrote:
A good simple breakdown for me based purely on # of ascent spaces would be:
Flat: 0-5
Hill: 6-10
Medium Mountain: 11-20
High Mountain: 21+
Why not,

But You don't include stage like Haute Montagne (19) and Classicissima (17) on High Mountain.

What do you think about :

Flat : 0-5
Hill : 6-10
Medium M : 11-15
High M : 16+
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Ryan Keane
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Vicen wrote:
Ryan Keane wrote:
A good simple breakdown for me based purely on # of ascent spaces would be:
Flat: 0-5
Hill: 6-10
Medium Mountain: 11-20
High Mountain: 21+
Why not,

But You don't include stage like Haute Montagne (19) and Classicissima (17) on High Mountain.

What do you think about :

Flat : 0-5
Hill : 6-10
Medium M : 11-15
High M : 16+


I don’t consider Haute Montagne and Classicissima as High Mountain stages, at least when I calibrate them to how Le Tour classifies their stages. In general, none of the official stages really reach that level of something like the Col de Galibier or Col d’Izoard.

My understanding is the official stages are designed to still stand up as single stages if players aren’t interested in a Tour. The huge High Mountain stages only really work as part of a Tour - they aren’t really fun or interesting to play in isolation.

I also don’t design my stages using the tiles, so the tile configuration limit what’s possible as official stage designs. I don’t actually know if it’s possible with the tiles to recreate my High Mountain stages, but I doubt it. I tried a bit and gave up.
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Ryan Keane
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Last year I happened to only have 1 stage in that 11-15 range, so that’s another reason for making the medium Mountain range larger, 11-20.

I haven’t looked too closely at the profiles of other Tours like Tirreno-Adriatico, but I like the idea of High Mountain stages being reserved for these big 20-21 stage Tour designs and keeping short 6 stage Tours to flat/hill/medium mountain. I do want to eventually design FR stage designs for the 3 big Tours and several of the other shorter Tours, with a consistent terrain and point system across all of them.
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Vincent Joly
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Ryan Keane wrote:
Last year I happened to only have 1 stage in that 11-15 range, so that’s another reason for making the medium Mountain range larger, 11-20.
19 medium and 21 High ?
Once more I don't agree with you.

And I think your custom stage 1km=1space do too mush flat spaces with movement limited to 5 (beceuse they are between two close hills)

And create realy bad design like "Dole - Station des Rousses" on the app.
(It's why I do a more balanced and realy more realistic version here)

If you look official Design you have :

three stages 0
two stages 5-8
five stages 10-12
two stages 18-19

If you do a double classification for Montain you can't place stage with 19 spaces Haute Montagne (HM) with track with 10-12 spaces.
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Vincent Joly
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Giro d'Italia

MAGLIA ROSA is manage by the app compagnon.
(note : in giro the GC leader have a pink jersey instead a yellow)

Trofeo Fast Team = Time of two riders
Trofeo Super Team is manage by the app compagnon.

For Maglia Ciclamino and Maglia Azzurra, use a paper and a pencil.


Flat : 0
Flase flat : 2-4
Hill : 5-9
Medium M : 10-15
High M : 16+

Maglia Ciclamino : score at finish line (and intermedite sprint)
Maglia Azzurra : score after the last uphill space of the stage.
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Ryan Keane
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Vicen wrote:
Ryan Keane wrote:
Last year I happened to only have 1 stage in that 11-15 range, so that’s another reason for making the medium Mountain range larger, 11-20.
19 medium and 21 High ?
Once more I don't agree with you.

And I think your custom stage 1km=1space do too mush flat spaces with movement limited to 5 (beceuse they are between two close hills)

And create realy bad design like "Dole - Station des Rousses" on the app.
(It's why I do a more balanced and realy more realistic version here)

If you look official Design you have :

three stages 0
two stages 5-8
five stages 10-12
two stages 18-19

If you do a double classification for Montain you can't place stage with 19 spaces Haute Montagne (HM) with track with 10-12 spaces.


I believe only 2 stages had “false flats”:
Stage 2 has 46A,47F,51D,52A; so while you can’t play anything above 5 energy in those 5 spaces between the 2 ascents, you CAN slipstream and gain free energy if you land right on the 1 space of descent, so I think it’s still interesting to cut up ascents with these small gaps.

Stage 11 has 15A,18F,21A,40D; so I agree there it’s pretty pointless, at best allowing 1 space of slipstream in an otherwise 25 space ascent. Making some or all of those flat spaces descent instead would probably make it better.

I’ve done all 19 stages at least twice, some several times, and really enjoy them, but my goal was to replicate exactly what the real stage profiles were, not create stages that a priori would be the best designs for FR gameplay. For 2018, having hill ascent terrain with 5 max movement but allowing slipstream will I think be a good way to create flat stages with some hills and cut up along ascents.
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Vincent Joly
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@Ryan
Giro for you :
Flat : 0
Flase flat : 2-5
Hill : 6-11
Medium M : 12-17
High M : 18+
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Vincent Joly
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A alternative for KoM :

• Score only on the higgest climb
• and on the climb at the finish line
- if it's the same, points are x2

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Vincent Joly
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Giro real classification :

(clic to enlarge)
 
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Vincent Joly
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Fan Variant : Mega Mix

Grand Tour Europe (fantasy imagined)



Classement Multi Tabble.

Photo finish if equality :
first table to have finish his game.
 
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