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The World of SMOG: Rise of Moloch» Forums » Rules

Subject: Madam Edwarda: what is a "Hit"? rss

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Jon Darlington
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Madam Edwarda's Hypnosis attack boost reads:

"If target is hit, instead of dealing damage, make 1 Agility action and 1 Attack action with the target."

What constitutes "the target is hit"?

a) Madam Edwarda's attack scored at least one success
b) Madam Edwarda's attack included at least one Hit or Hit+ result
c) After any defense rolls by the target, at least one success remained

I think probably c), since the Hypnosis text refers to damage that would otherwise occur. But... we weren't certain.
 
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Mark Mark
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I'd say, because of this phrase "instead of dealing damage". The correct answer is C.
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Abraham Quicksilver
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Agreed
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Josh Worley
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Agree. C.
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Chuck Hurd
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A Hit is defined in the rulebook as a "Bullseye" result, or a "Bullseye +" result, each of which are successes without regard to defense. See the iconography on page 19. The interesting part for me is the Crown is not called a Hit. It can become a success but it doesn't seem to start out as a "Hit" unlike the Bullseyes. Makes me think that a result of only crowns can generate successes without actually producing Hits. I'm probably over-complicating the crown but if I were going to simplify it I would defer to the Bullseye and call the Crown a Hit if I assigned it as a success.
 
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Jean lou Castonguay
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Rules as written: Hitting (exact wording on Edwarda is: if target is hit) is never mentionned as far as I see. There is a face named a hit and a hit+, but that's all.

Rules as intented: very probably they were refering to the fact that at least one damage would be done. Otherwise, what was the point of attacking? They should just have replaced that by :

Action (1 ether): Choose a target in short range, than make one agility ....
 
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Tom Morrice
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Carcking wrote:
A Hit is defined in the rulebook as a "Bullseye" result, or a "Bullseye +" result, each of which are successes without regard to defense. See the iconography on page 19. The interesting part for me is the Crown is not called a Hit. It can become a success but it doesn't seem to start out as a "Hit" unlike the Bullseyes. Makes me think that a result of only crowns can generate successes without actually producing Hits. I'm probably over-complicating the crown but if I were going to simplify it I would defer to the Bullseye and call the Crown a Hit if I assigned it as a success.


I agree that it should probably be C, but this quote shows why the rules are troublesome.
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Mark Mark
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The said "hit" or "bullseye" are the same. If it's the words that bugs you, then there's no such thing as a "bullseye" or "bullseye +". The name of the "bullseye" dice face or ICON (page 19) is called a HIT. The result as described is called a SUCCESS not a HIT. If word play is what is bugging you guys, then Madam Edwarda's "Hypnosis" attack boost could only be used only when she rolls a "HIT" and nothing else, not even on a "hit+" or "crown".
 
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Nicolas Tremblay
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I believe "hit" in this context is actually referencing a "Success". No real reference here, it just seems like the intent, also noting in the context "hit" isn't capitalized (aka used as a Proper Term) unlike other cases where "Hit"/"Hit+" are referenced.

 
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Mark Mark
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Daimortus wrote:
I believe "hit" in this context is actually referencing a "Success". No real reference here, it just seems like the intent, also noting in the context "hit" isn't capitalized (aka used as a Proper Term) unlike other cases where "Hit"/"Hit+" are referenced.



Precisely.

Now, on to another issue. Does said mind control allow you to use the affected figure to attack themselves? (Shoot or punch themselves in the head)
 
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Jon Darlington
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DarthCow wrote:
Precisely.

Now, on to another issue. Does said mind control allow you to use the affected figure to attack themselves? (Shoot or punch themselves in the head)

I'd say no. The rules don't really provide for this specifically; the closest they come is allowing a figure to attack an ally. So I suppose the first question would be: is a figure an ally of itself? I'll vote no. (Sort of like: "am I my neighbour?")

The there's the issue of range. Melee attacks are right out, because the target must be adjacent; and a figure is certainly not adjacent to itself.

A ranged attack might do away with the range issue (unlimited range, and short range of "up to" 4 squares, both encompass 0 range I supposed.)

But overall I'd have to say: no, the rules just don't create a space for a figure to attack itself.
 
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Mark Mark
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JDarlington wrote:
DarthCow wrote:
Precisely.

Now, on to another issue. Does said mind control allow you to use the affected figure to attack themselves? (Shoot or punch themselves in the head)

I'd say no. The rules don't really provide for this specifically; the closest they come is allowing a figure to attack an ally. So I suppose the first question would be: is a figure an ally of itself? I'll vote no. (Sort of like: "am I my neighbour?")

The there's the issue of range. Melee attacks are right out, because the target must be adjacent; and a figure is certainly not adjacent to itself.

A ranged attack might do away with the range issue (unlimited range, and short range of "up to" 4 squares, both encompass 0 range I supposed.)

But overall I'd have to say: no, the rules just don't create a space for a figure to attack itself.


Agree. Just wanna get some input on this in case some smart alek tries to pull off such a stunt. Has happened before in other games. I just deem such behavior as unsportsmanlike.
 
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Jon Darlington
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DarthCow wrote:
Agree. Just wanna get some input on this in case some smart alek tries to pull off such a stunt. Has happened before in other games. I just deem such behavior as unsportsmanlike.

Yeah, I know what you mean.

Incidentally, it's still completely legal for Madam Edwarda to attack another Agent to gain a move-and-attack for the Nemesis. (And potentially turning her two actions into four.) Could be nasty.
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Mark Mark
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JDarlington wrote:
DarthCow wrote:
Agree. Just wanna get some input on this in case some smart alek tries to pull off such a stunt. Has happened before in other games. I just deem such behavior as unsportsmanlike.

Yeah, I know what you mean.

Incidentally, it's still completely legal for Madam Edwarda to attack another Agent to gain a move-and-attack for the Nemesis. (And potentially turning her two actions into four.) Could be nasty.


I see what you did there
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Chuck Hurd
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Divio Juckal "gains 2 automatic Hits" when he uses his Charge ability. Are those Successes and so can be defended? Or are they automatic damage? If the latter, why not say "deals 2 automatic damage"?

The Ratboys also have an automatic Hit ability in Pack Tactics.
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Josh Worley
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Carcking wrote:
Divio Juckal "gains 2 automatic Hits" when he uses his Charge ability. Are those Successes and so can be defended? Or are they automatic damage? If the latter, why not say "deals 2 automatic damage"?

The Ratboys also have an automatic Hit ability in Pack Tactics.


I would consider them automatic successes that can be defended. If they were automatic damage, the wording would be like what is shown for the Flaming Zombies.
 
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Chuck Hurd
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swirlsaepi wrote:
Carcking wrote:
Divio Juckal "gains 2 automatic Hits" when he uses his Charge ability. Are those Successes and so can be defended? Or are they automatic damage? If the latter, why not say "deals 2 automatic damage"?

The Ratboys also have an automatic Hit ability in Pack Tactics.


I would consider them automatic successes that can be defended. If they were automatic damage, the wording would be like what is shown for the Flaming Zombies.

But are we considering these different "hits" than what triggers Madam Edwarda's ability as asked in the OP?
 
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Josh Worley
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Carcking wrote:
swirlsaepi wrote:
Carcking wrote:
Divio Juckal "gains 2 automatic Hits" when he uses his Charge ability. Are those Successes and so can be defended? Or are they automatic damage? If the latter, why not say "deals 2 automatic damage"?

The Ratboys also have an automatic Hit ability in Pack Tactics.


I would consider them automatic successes that can be defended. If they were automatic damage, the wording would be like what is shown for the Flaming Zombies.

But are we considering these different "hits" than what triggers Madam Edwarda's ability as asked in the OP?


I would, yes. Because I think the intention of Madam Edwarda's ability is that you have to still have hits/successes after the defense roll has been made.

In Divio's case, the Gentleman player could still potentially roll enough top hats (and umbrellas if in Cover) to negate Divio's automatic successes on top of any crowns or hits the Nemesis rolls.

In essense... Divio's ability is triggered before the defense roll, and Madam Edwarda's ability is triggered after the defense roll. At least, that's how I intend on playing it.
 
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Chuck Hurd
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swirlsaepi wrote:
Carcking wrote:
swirlsaepi wrote:
Carcking wrote:
Divio Juckal "gains 2 automatic Hits" when he uses his Charge ability. Are those Successes and so can be defended? Or are they automatic damage? If the latter, why not say "deals 2 automatic damage"?

The Ratboys also have an automatic Hit ability in Pack Tactics.


I would consider them automatic successes that can be defended. If they were automatic damage, the wording would be like what is shown for the Flaming Zombies.

But are we considering these different "hits" than what triggers Madam Edwarda's ability as asked in the OP?


I would, yes. Because I think the intention of Madam Edwarda's ability is that you have to still have hits/successes after the defense roll has been made.

In Divio's case, the Gentleman player could still potentially roll enough top hats (and umbrellas if in Cover) to negate Divio's automatic successes on top of any crowns or hits the Nemesis rolls.

In essense... Divio's ability is triggered before the defense roll, and Madam Edwarda's ability is triggered after the defense roll. At least, that's how I intend on playing it.

If the defense fails to block 3 of her successes, for example, does Edwarda get to perform 3 agility and 3 attack actions with the target? Or is she still held to just 1 and 1, and the target suffers 2 damage? Or does "instead of dealing damage" negate all of the successes that are not blocked?

I guess where we're stuck is the ability does seem to imply that a defender "being hit" may be different than an attacker "rolling a hit". Without an official clarification we're each going to have to choose which way to play it. Not sure which way we'll go yet but will discuss it with the group when we get to her.



 
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Josh Worley
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Carcking wrote:
swirlsaepi wrote:
Carcking wrote:
swirlsaepi wrote:
Carcking wrote:
Divio Juckal "gains 2 automatic Hits" when he uses his Charge ability. Are those Successes and so can be defended? Or are they automatic damage? If the latter, why not say "deals 2 automatic damage"?

The Ratboys also have an automatic Hit ability in Pack Tactics.


I would consider them automatic successes that can be defended. If they were automatic damage, the wording would be like what is shown for the Flaming Zombies.

But are we considering these different "hits" than what triggers Madam Edwarda's ability as asked in the OP?


I would, yes. Because I think the intention of Madam Edwarda's ability is that you have to still have hits/successes after the defense roll has been made.

In Divio's case, the Gentleman player could still potentially roll enough top hats (and umbrellas if in Cover) to negate Divio's automatic successes on top of any crowns or hits the Nemesis rolls.

In essense... Divio's ability is triggered before the defense roll, and Madam Edwarda's ability is triggered after the defense roll. At least, that's how I intend on playing it.

If the defense fails to block 3 of her successes, for example, does Edwarda get to perform 3 agility and 3 attack actions with the target? Or is she still held to just 1 and 1, and the target suffers 2 damage? Or does "instead of dealing damage" negate all of the successes that are not blocked?

I guess where we're stuck is the ability does seem to imply that a defender "being hit" may be different than an attacker "rolling a hit". Without an official clarification we're each going to have to choose which way to play it. Not sure which way we'll go yet but will discuss it with the group when we get to her.


I would play it as the Nemesis decides to either apply all of the damage or possess the target and perform 1 Attack and 1 Agility action with that figure, not a combination of both.
 
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