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Twilight Imperium: Fourth Edition» Forums » General

Subject: Poor Attitudes rss

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Jake
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Hey guys,

So my friends and I started getting together to play Twilight Imperium every couple months. My wife bought it for me for Christmas so I managed to get the guys together to play a few times. We are all relatively new to the game.

The first game we played was fine. We had fun, had a couple laughs, it was great. The second game though, there was an instance where my friend made a huge mistake while resolving Diplomacy by having us place our command tokens on one system (where none of his ships were btw) and refreshed the planets that his fleet was on.

My friend playing L1Z1X went in for combat against his fleet, they resolved combat completely but afterwards he said "Oh crap, that was the system I meant to resolve diplomacy on...". We could see that he refreshed the planets he meant it for so we knew he made that kind of mistake.

While we were discussing whether they could go back to before combat happened he threatened to quit because of that mistake. My L1Z1X friend decided to undo that action and took another one instead. My question to you is "How do I go about telling him that that kind of attitude is not acceptable? He is a close friend but I don't want to sound like a jerk to him because he is a few years older than me.
 
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Jim Carr
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This looks like a job for cannibalism!
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Daniel Grant
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Rage Quitting because you couldn’t pull a Mulligan is terrible sportsmanship. But insisting someone play through an unintended error can be as well. It’s tough.

Establish house rules regarding Mulligans as a group before you play. It can be hard in the moment when everyone’s passion is running high. Everyone makes mistakes and emotions sometimes trump reason during competitive games.

The key thing is everyone should agree first. I don’t think it’s helpful to dictate house rules to players even if it is your house. Discuss and form a consensus before the game starts.
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Sean D.
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TI games can get pretty intense. WE kind of give each player one "mulligan" to fix an error in play or application of the rules. It really depends on your goal? Are you hanging out as friends? Casually playing a looong game like TI or do you play competitively and hold strict to every rule? Threatening to quit will leave a bad taste for everyone and pretty much spoil a session. Is this a common thing for him or is it a one time thing? Something else bothering him in life? Is the friendship worth more than the game? I've done some stupid things and got upset in sessions, it happens. I apologize quickly and do my best not to get upset, but my competitive nature comes out and I'm human. All my friends are too, so we generally forgive and forget. Maybe lay off playing TI with him for a session? I really can only give general thoughts here. Good luck!
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Ronald Cruz
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However they feel about what they're.doing, by threatening to leave they are dictating to the group.

Argue it, bring it to a vote. But don't threaten to ruin the game for everyone or use psychological warfare.
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ä ä

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I had similar things going on in my last game. One player took metacol early on and provoked his neighbor then that he cannot take the planet due to him beeing too weak. They kept argueing and started fighting about every planet and at a certain game state, they were both left crippled, everyone took the opponents home system and their fleet was almost gone. At this time, the player in the lead had 6 points, the 2 fighters had 2 and 1 points. I pointed out several times that scoring points let you win the game, not killing your neighbors. Then one replied, he dont care anymore about points, he just wants to see the other player loose. And then 2 rounds later, he said he wants to quit, stood up and we ended the game there after 8h investing into it.

Thing to learn from this: i wont invite him to play.this game anymore. Other shorter games ok, but this is completely ruining the game for all.

For your case though, i would have let him take back his fail placement, since he did refresh the right planets but tell him that he should be careful to threat to leave the game.i mean his mistake was easily seen and you let him undo, so shouting out "let me undo or i ll leave" is the maximum lvl of game quality loss one can do. Tell him he should just ask politely for undoing and that hes sorry he made a mistake. Because if he ragequits, it not only instantly ruins this game (since you have to stop unfinished you cannot just restart a 10h session), but it also puts an instant threat on all future games your friend is involved, that he will quit again. And you wont find many people who want to play with such a friend. So tell him that he shoots himself in the leg if he goes for such extreme methodes. He should: ask politely for undoing because there is evidence he wanted do play the other way, but he MUST MUST MUST accept it if your table is a hard one and says no, you made that mistake, learn from it.

Personally i would let him undo, but it totally depends on the playgroup. You can also show your friend these awnsers here, they are all quite helpful for your friend even more then for you.
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Jake
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Thank you very much for your replies! I have had instances of both of us raging during a game before and coming out of it ok, but to me, this game is a different beast. If we invest a entire Saturday into a game, you cannot threaten to leave. That makes me less likely to attack you that game, but also less likely that I will invite you for another game.

He’s a good friend but so I value his friendship much more then any game. I just hope he can see the error of his ways, listen to the group, and move on. Yea things get heated, but at the end of a day, it’s a game and I’m here to spend time with them.
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Brian Petersen
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I'd also consider the timing of the discussion/threat insofar as how the player vs the table acted.

If the table decided NOT to allow the mulligan & stated so, THEN he threatened to rage quit, THEN the table conceded, the table may have encouraged that behavior for all players.

If he made the threat before the table had a chance to state the mulligan will be allowed, I think the table was going to allow the mulligan anyway & you should discuss with your group that threatening to rage quit is not productive or enjoyable for anyone.

GadyLaga's issue on the other hand, is very common. There is no one right answer on how to keep a player engaged when they're near elimination nor to prevent a player from nearly eliminating another.
 
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Scott Lewis
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I think the threat of rage-quitting is pretty poor form, though I know sometimes people get caught up in the heat of the moment in saying such things. In this case, though, I think some of it could have been averted by the players as a whole. When it was obvious that the player pointed at the wrong system (particularly because, if I read the post right, the system chosen wasn't even legal), it shouldn't have really been a question about letting him correct it. With more experienced players, that would have been caught right away. "You can't pick that system, did you mean a different system?", but with newer players I can see that it got missed. When it becomes apparent what the intent was (which, again, the OP seems to indicate was clear once the error was discovered by all), I think allowing the mulligan is good form.

Granted, if it was experienced players, and the player had picked a LEGAL system, but not the one he meant, that could be a different story, but I get the impression here that the picked system was not legal anyway, and that the players were new. Those two factors combined are enough for justifying the "fixing". Of course, that doesn't justify the rage-quit threat, as that could have been handled diplomatically as well.
 
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Roy W
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In this case, allowing a mulligan would be a big no-no for me. There's no way he should've waited until after combat to realize he had played diplomacy in the wrong place. Hearing that he threatened to quit over it also lends more credence to the idea that he knew for damn sure he did it wrong beforehand, but wanted to see how combat played out before copping to it.

People like that aren't worth playing with anyhow. Let him leave, declare his race to be in civil disorder and move on.
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Daniel Grant
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As you noted, TI is much different than your average game. The length of the game makes rage quitting and ruining the fun for everyone after hours of investment completely unreasonable. But ironically the huge time investment makes rage quitting completely reasonable to the screwed over player who sees hours of investment ruined by an unintended error.

I’m not saying your friend was right in this situation but they could see their own actions as being right. Use this situation to place boundaries on future conflicts. Because there will be conflicts. TI is conflict.
 
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Scott Lewis
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EmperorXIX wrote:
In this case, allowing a mulligan would be a big no-no for me. There's no way he should've waited until after combat to realize he had played diplomacy in the wrong place.

The fact that the move was illegal to begin with means the ENTIRE TABLE is at fault for letting it fly, in my opinion.

Sometimes it isn't until after something like that happens that you realize it. If the original move was illegal to begin with, that's different than just accidentally choosing a different LEGAL system. I'm not justifying the "waiting until after" itself, because the timing is pretty poor (and his antics afterwards even poorer), but the rest of the table has to take some of the blame, too.


I should note, too, that if a player were to quit a game of TI4 mid-game, you'd probably have to end the game. There's no easy, fair way to have a player quit, because the neighbors of that player get a HUGE advantage by the sudden void left behind.
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Fabio Henrique
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Peanut3181 wrote:
Hey guys,
My friend playing L1Z1X went in for combat against his fleet, they resolved combat completely but afterwards he said "Oh crap, that was the system I meant to resolve diplomacy on...". We could see that he refreshed the planets he meant it for so we knew he made that kind of mistake.


The rage-quit player should have noticed at the beginning of the combat...I mean combats in TI are not fast. If someone attacks you in a strategic system you will notice immediately...
 
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Drew Lawson
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eurofabio wrote:
Peanut3181 wrote:
Hey guys,
My friend playing L1Z1X went in for combat against his fleet, they resolved combat completely but afterwards he said "Oh crap, that was the system I meant to resolve diplomacy on...". We could see that he refreshed the planets he meant it for so we knew he made that kind of mistake.


The rage-quit player should have noticed at the beginning of the combat...I mean combats in TI are not fast. If someone attacks you in a strategic system you will notice immediately...


No kidding. How does someone intentionally take Diplomacy, play it on the wrong system, and then still not remember that they meant to protect the key system once it gets attacked?

No way my group would let this get taken back, especially since an entire battle had been fought already (if the L1Z1X had lost, would the offending player still want a take-back?). Dice have been rolled, no turning back after that. Threaten to quit? Fine, leave now and lose your chance to play TI with this group ever again.
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Adam Rogers
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I run my group and lead by example. If any small mistakes are made we all agree it's not a big deal and usually let that player get his trade goods/place his Arborec GF on a planet he controlled. Stuff like that is no big deal.

If it was something like what you entailed...me as the game master would not let them take that action back (unless it just happened). But I also keep pretty good watch out on peoples positions and actions and inform them if I see anything that feels off. I want everyone to have as fair as a game as possible, and if they forget about a tech or something else they have, I don't want constant mulligan requests.

If any of my friends ever threatened to quit over something like that, I would most definitely call them out on it and explain "this is supposed to be fun...and if you aren't having fun anymore I understand, but seriously how old are you."

I have hated playing certain games with friends, but I would play to the end no matter what...because its not about winning, its about socializing with a group of buddies.
 
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Ronald Cruz
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Somewhat related, but Shattered Ascension has a procedure for dealing with a player leaving the game. It's a bit lengthy, but it can salvage game that players have invested several hours in. Here is my attempt to adapt it to Fourth Edition:

Player Option: Surrender
This option minimizes the impact on the game if a player have to or wishes to leave the table, perhaps after being practically eliminated.
A player may, after having spent available resources on building units and having passed, call the Surrender. Doing so, they lose 2 Victory Points as if not controlling their home system (these penalties do not stack [this refers to a Shattered Ascension variant rule]). If the surrendered player was Speaker, the token moves to the next player... in the direction of the Rotation Cycler [this is a Shattered Ascension feature].

After refreshing planets in the following Status Phase, do:
1) Remove Space Docks on all planets except the planet with the highest combined resource and influence value containing a Space Dock inside his Home System. (If no such Space Dock is controlled inside his Home System, do the same for Space Docks outside the Home System; if no such Space Docks exists, simply use a random planet with the planet with the highest combined resources and influence.). This is now called the capital planet.
2) Add up to three Ground Forces, but not exceeding a final total of 5 ground units, to the capital planet. This planet and its forces will remain passive after the following steps.
3) Speaker then chooses a planet (not the capital planet) or fleet belonging to the surrendered player. Players will then place bids, in influence, on ownership of the selected fleet or planet. Only the winning bid is paid for (as usual, Trade Goods can substitute for influence). Planets are transferred exhausted.
4) The next player (again in the direction of the Cycler) may then choose the next planet or fleet and place a bid in the same way as in step 3). Repeat this step until all ships and planets (except the capital planet) are taken over by opponents.

Surrendered players are ignored and not affected by agendas, but Objectives (e.g. control a planet in another player's Home System) can be scored against surrendered players.
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David Destefanis
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I have a friend like this.

I simply stopped inviting him to do boardgames with my group.
Mind, I was patient, but he kept "whine-quitting" too often (which is different than rage-quitting, but the overall result is the same), and none of my other gamers wanted him at the table anymore.

Not to speak about the fact that if you're not attentive, he does small amount of action in the cheating department.

He's not a bad person, he has just an horrible life and can't take aggression (in game) easily at all, and when he is losing, he feels even more down.

At least he understands the issue himself, so wasn't feeling bad about me not inviting him anymore. That's more than most rage-quitters can acknowledge.

To get back to the OP, how you deal with this depends on the group.
But he should know that this attitude will get him banned (officially or non officially, with others players just mysteriously not being available to play when he is around).
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Jethro
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This is absolute bullshit.

He cannot resolve combat then decide to take it back. What would he have done if he had won combat?

Regardless, in my group we wouldn't have allowed it combat or not. Attacking a player is quite a serious reveal. So he player who attacked is at a serious disadvantage diplomatically if he has to take it back, because he has shown his hand, but hasn't reaped any reward from it through absolutely no fault of their own.

If there was a token on that hex, perhaps the player would not have attacked this round and can go on pretending to be peaceful.

We only allow take backs if nothing else is affected, and this doesn't qualify.
 
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Nathan McCullough
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Sounds like he took a gambit and it didn't pay off so he threw a fit.
0/10 would not play with again. If you let it slide this time - they'll do it again at some point.

Especially since it's been said before and noted, he said it AFTER combat. If he'd have noticed before hand, no probs.. just change your diplo target.

If it was me and I meant to lock out people from my system, as soon as someone targeted it, i'd be like 'oh crap! that's what i was trying to protect against this WHOLE TURN.. it's why i took the diplo card'

just doesn't make sense.
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james herbby
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If I had fucked up that badly I would have asked the table for a muligan.

If they say no, I would have refreshed the planets I had dipped and dealt with it.

Mistakes happen. If you can't deal with it maybe do something else.
 
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Stephen Gillespie
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Losing it because you made a mistake and threatening to quit is sad behaviour but I guess some people react badly in certain social situations and also some players are just perennial sore losers.

Making catastrophic mistakes should be part of the fun (I always get a good laugh when I miss something important or make a horrible error especially if it's a game I know well) and it also makes it even more of an achievement if you do well despite said catastrophe!

 
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I‘m all for sportsmanlike behaviour, and being gracious with mistakes, but this?

Apart from the fact that designating the wrong system for Diplomacy should be obvious (especially if the system he wants to protect has his fleet in it - to me, it sounds more like he wanted to protect the system WITHOUT ships and just refreshed the wrong system), I do not consider bringing this argument AFTER the combat was resolved to be sportsmanlike.

This is not some „easy mistake“ that is easily fixed. In a fucked up situation like this, the best way to unfuck something is to look for the quickest and cleanest way out - which in this case would be to keep the system that was designated, and adjust the Planet Card status accordingly.

For example, I played tech once, and researched PDS 2. Inproceeded tomraid my neighbour with Cruisers moving like Cruisers 2, carrying GFs around etc. I realised my mistake the next turn; since I had not yet used PDS 2, the best solution was to replace PDS 2 with Cruiser 2 (since I had the requirements). This was done without shouting; I just announced my mistake and offered my head in shame for judgement.

Threatening to throw the game is blackmail, plain and simple - especially in that situation which was entirely (!) his fault.

I‘d either (i) remove him from future games (if not a close friend), or (ii) have a short discussion with him about it, and make it clear, that this is not how socially functioning individuals solve their problems.



 
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Scott Lewis
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GrumblingGamer wrote:
Apart from the fact that designating the wrong system for Diplomacy should be obvious (especially if the system he wants to protect has his fleet in it - to me, it sounds more like he wanted to protect the system WITHOUT ships and just refreshed the wrong system), I do not consider bringing this argument AFTER the combat was resolved to be sportsmanlike.

I agree, though I should point out that according to the OP, he had apparently refreshed the planets in the INTENDED system, not the one he pointed to.

I don't know if that is enough to excuse everything else, though, but I think that at least shows that he did indeed legitimately intend something else.

Definitely doesn't excuse the "rage quit" threat, though.
 
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