Shawn Fox
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http://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/380458-blue-states-s...

I really don't get it. I mean, I do get that counting non citizens toward the population does benefit certain states, but I don't see why any reasonable person would believe that a non citizen should have any impact on how many representatives a state would get. Maybe we should make them count as 3/5th of a person?

If liberals want to bitch about something like that, there are over 3 million US citizens in Puerto Rico who get no representation in the US government and seems like a much larger and actually valid issue to me.
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sfox wrote:
http://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/380458-blue-states-s...

I really don't get it. I mean, I do get that counting non citizens toward the population does benefit certain states, but I don't see why any reasonable person would believe that a non citizen should have any impact on how many representatives a state would get. Maybe we should make them count as 3/5th of a person?

If liberals want to bitch about something like that, there are over 3 million US citizens in Puerto Rico who get no representation in the US government and seems like a much larger and actually valid issue to me.


They're not "not counting non-citizens", they're counting non-citizens while making them state that they're not citizens. This has a huge chilling effect on illegal immigrant participation, because they have to worry about Jackbooted ICE thugs going after them.

If the actual intent were to not count them, it would be a different discussion. In this case they're not being counted as a side-effect of the brazen attempt to intimidate and bully them.

Edit: I mean it has a potential tack-on effect to push representation up or down in various places, so there might be a political label... but I think the effect of that is too hard to control, and that's not what it's intended to be about.
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https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1965408/census-question...

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Bill Cook
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sfox wrote:
I really don't get it. I mean, I do get that counting non citizens toward the population does benefit certain states, but I don't see why any reasonable person would believe that a non citizen should have any impact on how many representatives a state would get. Maybe we should make them count as 3/5th of a person?


Equating non-citizen with slaves. Nice.

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perhaps because if you don't count none citizens - you don't get an accurrate picture of the actual usage of resources and pressures on infrastructure?
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William Boykin
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Also, local government data. If you dont count residents who arent citizens, the population numbers you need to budget for servicez like police, fire, sanitation etc are all out of whack. This means that local govts are faced with budget shortfalls- even non citizens need police and sanitation services.

There are tons of local govt services that non citizens pay for through taxes tjat if they weren't counted in the census, would wreck havock with budgets- not to mention aid from the Federal Government that are many times tied to population.

Fears of being deported, already a big problem for census takers, will skew the numbers dramatically, for no real gain other than to appeal to base Nativism.

Counting all residents just makes sense.

Darilian
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growlley wrote:
perhaps because if you don;t count none citizens - you don't get an accurrate picture of the actual usage of resources and pressures on infrastructure?


What he said....
ninja

Darilian

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sfox wrote:
...I don't see why any reasonable person would believe that a non citizen should have any impact on how many representatives a state would get. Maybe we should make them count as 3/5th of a person?
If you believe that a non-citizen should not have an impact on state representation, then why count them at all? And as already mentioned, the fraction of a person nonsense alludes to our racist past.
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> Why does anyone have an issue with the census not counting non citizens?

besides all the other mentioned reasons, it would be unconstitutional
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sfox wrote:
I mean, I do get that counting non citizens toward the population does benefit certain states, but I don't see why any reasonable person would believe that a non citizen should have any impact on how many representatives a state would get.

Maybe you don't, but the Constitution does not require citizenship to be included in the population count for representation. If someone wants such a requirement, they are free to propose a Constitutional Amendment to that effect. Until then, there isn't one.
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How about throwing in the fact that you can be a non-citizen on your way to citizenship quite legally at the time of the census, but you're still a 'non-citizen' even though you're a legal resident.
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Shadrach wrote:
How about throwing in the fact that you can be a non-citizen on your way to citizenship quite legally at the time of the census, but you're still a 'non-citizen' even though you're a legal resident.
Should they get an early voting ballot, too?
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J.D. Hall
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Silly posters:

1. Answers on Census forms (only one in 10 will receive the long form) are strictly kept secure from other federal and state agencies, such as police and ICE, etc. Those agencies can receive aggragate data from the Census Bureau, not household specific data.

2. So, every non-citizen should just fill in "yes I'm a citizen."

3. #anotherwaytofuckwithTrump
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Vrooman wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
How about throwing in the fact that you can be a non-citizen on your way to citizenship quite legally at the time of the census, but you're still a 'non-citizen' even though you're a legal resident.
Should they get an early voting ballot, too?


Maybe if we voted once every 10 yrs.
 
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Mostly, https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/3/28/17168048/c...

It’s not just a symbolic issue. Critics are seriously concerned that adding a single citizenship question to the 2020 census could scare away millions of immigrants from filling out their mandatory surveys — throwing off the count of who’s present in America that’s used to determine congressional apportionment for the next decade, allocate federal funding for infrastructure, and serve as the basis for huge amounts of American research.

A skewed census would hurt the places in America where Latinos are most likely to live — cities and blue states — fueling both the lawsuit and the suspicion that the Trump administration is engaging in deliberate subterfuge.


and;

The government can’t actually do that. Federal law strictly prohibits the Census Bureau from sharing information. But under Trump, it’s really hard for any government official to persuade immigrants — or US-born Latinos — that she can be trusted to protect them.

Short answer, people that are afraid to fill out the form are more than likely in a blue state, and their decision not to fill out the form impacts (disfavors) the allotment of Congressional representation, in favor of the Republicans.
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And let's not forget the mostly throwaway point in there about Puerto Rico getting no representation and getting no support from liberals: As it happens, liberals would happily give them real reps and downright statehood, with 2 more seats in the senate. Put that bill in the senate, and you won't see one Democratic vote against it. You will also not see one Republican one, and you won't see a vote as long as the leadership is Republican.
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What is going to stop liberal citizens in Republican controlled states from marking themselves as non-citizens in the hopes of reducing the number of Republicans that their state can elect into congress?
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growlley wrote:
perhaps because if you don't count none citizens - you don't get an accurrate picture of the actual usage of resources and pressures on infrastructure?
I'm surprised we haven't heard the anti-immigration answer to this yet, mainly that if communities realized the real cost of non-citizen populations more people would be yelling about immigration.
 
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Eric_Tama wrote:
What is going to stop liberal citizens in Republican controlled states from marking themselves as non-citizens in the hopes of reducing the number of Republicans that their state can elect into congress?


That won't work, everyone is counted in the census, unless they fail to fill one out entirely, so marking themselves as non-citizens will still count them (for purposes of Congressional apportionment). The apportionment is based on the total population of the state, not those that declare themselves Republican vs Democrat. In fact, I am not even sure the Census asks for political ideology.
 
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remorseless1 wrote:
Silly posters:

1. Answers on Census forms (only one in 10 will receive the long form) are strictly kept secure from other federal and state agencies, such as police and ICE, etc. Those agencies can receive aggragate data from the Census Bureau, not household specific data.

2. So, every non-citizen should just fill in "yes I'm a citizen."

3. #anotherwaytofuckwithTrump


If I were a non-citizen living in the US, I would have very little faith that this data could be kept out of the hands of ICE, no matter what guarantees I had been given. They show little regard for due process in their actions, and good luck suing them if they step out of line to get your data,
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Eric Tama
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abadolato01 wrote:
Eric_Tama wrote:
What is going to stop liberal citizens in Republican controlled states from marking themselves as non-citizens in the hopes of reducing the number of Republicans that their state can elect into congress?


That won't work, everyone is counted in the census, unless they fail to fill one out entirely, so marking themselves as non-citizens will still count them (for purposes of Congressional apportionment). The apportionment is based on the total population of the state, not those that declare themselves Republican vs Democrat. In fact, I am not even sure the Census asks for political ideology.


I posted that in this thread rather than the other one to show how not counting non-citizens could potentially backfire.
 
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Bill Cook
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Just a reminder that most non-citizens in the country are here perfectly legally.
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aiabx wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:
Silly posters:

1. Answers on Census forms (only one in 10 will receive the long form) are strictly kept secure from other federal and state agencies, such as police and ICE, etc. Those agencies can receive aggragate data from the Census Bureau, not household specific data.

2. So, every non-citizen should just fill in "yes I'm a citizen."

3. #anotherwaytofuckwithTrump


If I were a non-citizen living in the US, I would have very little faith that this data could be kept out of the hands of ICE, no matter what guarantees I had been given. They show little regard for due process in their actions, and good luck suing them if they step out of line to get your data,
That regard for due process went out the window with unchecked mass government surveillance. All of it acknowledged and approved by past occupants of the White House. Nice precedent of unchecked power bequeathed to Trump. Make America Great Again.
 
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Bill Cook
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I liked Obama as POTUS. But a big failure was not dialing down the spy state.
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EMBison wrote:
I liked Obama as POTUS. But a big failure was not dialing down the spy state.

I didn't like Obama but because I disagreed with how he did things a fair bit. The man was at least sane. With Obama, I objected as one can and does to a normal politician. Trump is a freaking loon who should never have been allowed anywhere near office.
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