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Subject: Anyone else not sold on these “high variance” dice? rss

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Eduardo Ortiz
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The one thing keeping me from backing this is these dice. It just doesn’t seem fun to be rolling dice and rarely getting a success. The fun is in being able to formulate a plan and executing it, knowing there’s a chance that it won’t happen. It is certainly not fun to be formulating a plan and having the chances of succeeding being so low, feels like a casino game at that point. Games like Gloomhaven and Omega Protocol have variance but it’s way lower and works really well. For some reason, to me, higher variance equals less strategy and less fun. And for those saying that the fun is in mitigating the dice re-rolls, still not sold, like I said before that sound more like a casino game than an action board game. Anyone else having these thoughts? Or am I missing something? Would love to be wrong, as everything else in this game looks amazing.
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Joao Rodrigues
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OK. You don't like it then. Good for you.
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Speaking from experience in playing several Conan scenarios (that basically use the same dice/combat rules), it isnt as swingy as it might seem.
You have dice that have a very poor chance of success, dice that have a medium chance, and dice with a high chance of success and you strategize according to your dice pool.

If you make an attack with 3 yellow dice, you really cant expect a big hit-it just isnt possible. If you roll 3 red dice you expect to do decent damage and usually do so.
Some freak die rolls may happen but in general those are really rare. (Kind of like drawing the dreaded 0 dmg card in gloomhaven) and can be mitigated by rerolls.
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Eduardo Ortiz
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Fizzletop wrote:
Speaking from experience in playing several Conan scenarios (that basically use the same dice/combat rules), it isnt as swingy as it might seem.
You have dice that have a very poor chance of success, dice that have a medium chance, and dice with a high chance of success and you strategize according to your dice pool.

If you make an attack with 3 yellow dice, you really cant expect a big hit-it just isnt possible. If you roll 3 red dice you expect to do decent damage and usually do so.
Some freak die rolls may happen but in general those are really rare. (Kind of like drawing the dreaded 0 dmg card in gloomhaven) and can be mitigated by rerolls.


I have no issue with the yellow/orange/red dice, those seem legit. I’m talking about the black/white dice, which from the videos it seems like they get used quite often, and their variance (chance of missing) is way high.
 
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Frank Lee

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That's just something you've got to decide for yourself as a board gamer. Obviously aversion to dice is largely unheard of with miniature gamers, but board games have a huge variety of styles and random elements don't appeal to some people. You wouldn't be alone, but most people don't mind/enjoy dice.
 
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IIRC, Both sides can spend energy cubes to reroll dice, much like various other games do (eg. Arkham Horror). Which powers or abilities use the white or black dice?

My problem with Conan's dice was that we were focusing more on the dice than the theme. I thought Energy Cubes were a good idea, but ended up crunching cubes and dice to get an idea of what numbers to expect when rolling the dice. And, yes, I dropped down to the $1 pledge level for this and other reasons.
 
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Eduardo Ortiz
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Sam and Max wrote:
IIRC, Both sides can spend energy cubes to reroll dice. Which powers or abilities use the white or black dice?



https://boardgamegeek.com/video/168494/batman-gotham-city-ch...

Watch that video and count the amount of misses, it gets a bit over the top... Bane is completely useless the whole game cause he misses his big attack (black dice).

Not sure which other abilities use the black/white dice, but you can find out more in the vid, activating bombs seem to use white dice, and those get missed a lot as well.

There's a small discussion about what I'm talking about under the vid but sadly doesn't get much traction.

Anyways, we'll see if my opinion changes in the pledge manager, i hope it does.
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I pretty much agree with Kam -- also, it doesn't help that I remember some other AT game that the Dice Tower made bad decisions playing! laugh

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I briefly wondered about that also, but in all the reviews and feedback I've heard from people who played the game that's never once come up as a criticism.

Also, in the video you cite the villain would have won except for his tactical mistake at the end. That scenario also only uses one villain (all the others have two) so I wonder if that made it feel like the villains were useless.

As for the white and black dice, they aren't used very often. White dice tend to be supplemental to other dice for an opportunity for an added oomph. And black dice either tend to come with rerolls or are intended to be high risk, high reward abilities.
 
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Joao Rodrigues
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It's a "high risk, high reward" thing. I'm completely OK with it. Black Dice has the biggest possible hits, but it also has the most of blank sides. If you use it, you know that you are either missing or hitting it hard. It is a tactical choice from your side.
 
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Nicholas Palmer
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Remember to save cubes for rerolls. Especially with high variance dice. Rerolls are more effective on black dice than any other die in the game.

With mitigation, the variance really isn't as much as you think. If you are using them blindly without rerolls, you are the one relying on the high risk, the game isn't forcing you to.
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edsounddesign wrote:
The one thing keeping me from backing this is these dice. It just doesn’t seem fun to be rolling dice and rarely getting a success. The fun is in being able to formulate a plan and executing it, knowing there’s a chance that it won’t happen. It is certainly not fun to be formulating a plan and having the chances of succeeding being so low, feels like a casino game at that point. Games like Gloomhaven and Omega Protocol have variance but it’s way lower and works really well. For some reason, to me, higher variance equals less strategy and less fun. And for those saying that the fun is in mitigating the dice re-rolls, still not sold, like I said before that sound more like a casino game than an action board game. Anyone else having these thoughts? Or am I missing something? Would love to be wrong, as everything else in this game looks amazing.


I completely agree. The "control board" and energy cubes are great mechanisms, but the dice-based combat kills the whole game for me.
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KM Brooks
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edsounddesign wrote:
...and their variance (chance of missing) is way high.


That sounds like low variance to me. Low variance, heavily weighted towards failure.
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Eduardo Ortiz
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Johnnymaxx wrote:
It's a "high risk, high reward" thing. I'm completely OK with it. Black Dice has the biggest possible hits, but it also has the most of blank sides. If you use it, you know that you are either missing or hitting it hard. It is a tactical choice from your side.


It is not a tactical choice in my side if the game chooses for me which dice to roll. From my understanding abilities have predetermined dice choices (yes I know you can add dice through cubes, but those are predetermined as well, you don’t just choose whatever die you please).
 
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Joao Rodrigues
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edsounddesign wrote:
Johnnymaxx wrote:
It's a "high risk, high reward" thing. I'm completely OK with it. Black Dice has the biggest possible hits, but it also has the most of blank sides. If you use it, you know that you are either missing or hitting it hard. It is a tactical choice from your side.


It is not a tactical choice in my side if the game chooses for me which dice to roll. From my understanding abilities have predetermined dice choices (yes I know you can add dice through cubes, but those are predetermined as well, you don’t just choose whatever die you please).

But if you are a hero you choose the hero that you are using in the mission, and if you are the villain you choose what you are doing with said villain. If you think that using Bane to attack is too risky because of the possible blanks, use him to arm bombs with his other dice or just hinder the heroes with his presence.

EDIT: (you answered the previous bit while I was adding this bit) - It is your choice what will you do. You weight the odds, you prepare for it with the energy cubes, and tries it. Like I said, I don't have any problem with that. And it is all ok if you have a problem with it. The game is clearly not for you then and you can spend your money in other things that you like better than this one.
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Eduardo Ortiz
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Touchfuzzy wrote:
Remember to save cubes for rerolls. Especially with high variance dice. Rerolls are more effective on black dice than any other die in the game.

With mitigation, the variance really isn't as much as you think. If you are using them blindly without rerolls, you are the one relying on the high risk, the game isn't forcing you to.


Sorry but this whole idea of making re-rolls the main mechanic which winning or loosing depend upon is silly to me. I want to win based on my choices in terms of the actual tactics of the game, not based on how many re-rolls I do throughout it. Again, it starts feeling more like a gambling/casino game when described that way rather than an tactical game.
Anyways, I’m sure people will no matter what, might still get it myself, hoping this whole “high variance” dice isn’t as big of a deal as it seems right now.
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Nathaniel Chambers
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Honeslty this game is mostly not my kind of game, I'm in it to play with Batman toys.
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Eduardo Ortiz
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Johnnymaxx wrote:
edsounddesign wrote:
Johnnymaxx wrote:
It's a "high risk, high reward" thing. I'm completely OK with it. Black Dice has the biggest possible hits, but it also has the most of blank sides. If you use it, you know that you are either missing or hitting it hard. It is a tactical choice from your side.


It is not a tactical choice in my side if the game chooses for me which dice to roll. From my understanding abilities have predetermined dice choices (yes I know you can add dice through cubes, but those are predetermined as well, you don’t just choose whatever die you please).

But if you are a hero you choose the hero that your using in the mission, and if you are the villain you choose what you are doing with said villain. If you think that using Bane to attack is too risky because of the possible blanks, use him to arm bombs with his other dice or just hinder the heroes with his presence.


Arming bombs also used high variance dice (white)...
 
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Joao Rodrigues
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Sorry for duplicating this part, but I was adding it through edit but then you answered it already, so I'll just add this bit here as a new point:
_______________________
It is your choice what will you do. You weight the odds, you prepare for it with the energy cubes, and tries it. Like I said, I don't have any problem with that. And it is all ok if you have a problem with that. The game is clearly not for you then and you can spend your money on other things that you like better than this one.
_____________________
 
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Eduardo Ortiz
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Johnnymaxx wrote:
Sorry for duplicating this part, but I was adding it through edit but then you answered it already, so I'll just add this bit here as a new point:
_______________________
It is your choice what will you do. You weight the odds, you prepare for it with the energy cubes, and tries it. Like I said, I don't have any problem with that. And it is all ok if you have a problem with that. The game is clearly not for you then and you can spend your money on other things that you like better than this one.
_____________________


Definitely, we have lots of choices as gamers now a days

If I don’t get it I do hope to be able to play it someday, and I’m sure I’ll enjoy it. It’s more a matter of if it’s worth owning it or not. Either way, hope people enjoy the crap out of it!
 
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Eduardo Ortiz
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bubblepipemedia wrote:
Honeslty this game is mostly not my kind of game, I'm in it to play with Batman toys.


Lets play it Nathaniel! =P
 
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Nicholas Palmer
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edsounddesign wrote:
Touchfuzzy wrote:
Remember to save cubes for rerolls. Especially with high variance dice. Rerolls are more effective on black dice than any other die in the game.

With mitigation, the variance really isn't as much as you think. If you are using them blindly without rerolls, you are the one relying on the high risk, the game isn't forcing you to.


Sorry but this whole idea of making re-rolls the main mechanic which winning or loosing depend upon is silly to me. I want to win based on my choices in terms of the actual tactics of the game, not based on how many re-rolls I do throughout the it. Again, it starts feeling more like a gambling/casino game when described that way rather than an tactical game.
Anyways, I’m sure people will no matter what, might still get it myself, hoping this whole “high variance” dice isn’t as big of a deal as it seems right now.


Using cubes for rerolls IS a tactical choice.

Once again: If you are using black dice with no rerolls available because you've spent all your cubes, or want to save the cubes for a different use, that is a tactical risk you are taking. You make the decision to do that, not the game.
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bubblepipemedia wrote:
Honeslty this game is mostly not my kind of game, I'm in it to play with Batman toys.


Same here. I wasn't sold on the Conan engine as it is somehow clever but it distracts from the theme...and it's cold.

But then, yeah, Batman figurines, so...
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Eduardo Ortiz
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Touchfuzzy wrote:
edsounddesign wrote:
Touchfuzzy wrote:
Remember to save cubes for rerolls. Especially with high variance dice. Rerolls are more effective on black dice than any other die in the game.

With mitigation, the variance really isn't as much as you think. If you are using them blindly without rerolls, you are the one relying on the high risk, the game isn't forcing you to.


Sorry but this whole idea of making re-rolls the main mechanic which winning or loosing depend upon is silly to me. I want to win based on my choices in terms of the actual tactics of the game, not based on how many re-rolls I do throughout the it. Again, it starts feeling more like a gambling/casino game when described that way rather than an tactical game.
Anyways, I’m sure people will no matter what, might still get it myself, hoping this whole “high variance” dice isn’t as big of a deal as it seems right now.


Using cubes for rerolls IS a tactical choice.

Once again: If you are using black dice with no rerolls available because you've spent all your cubes, or want to save the cubes for a different use, that is a tactical risk you are taking. You make the decision to do that, not the game.


Cool, I just don’t want it to be THE tactical choice that makes you win/loose. Capiche?
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Nicholas Palmer
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edsounddesign wrote:
Touchfuzzy wrote:
edsounddesign wrote:
Touchfuzzy wrote:
Remember to save cubes for rerolls. Especially with high variance dice. Rerolls are more effective on black dice than any other die in the game.

With mitigation, the variance really isn't as much as you think. If you are using them blindly without rerolls, you are the one relying on the high risk, the game isn't forcing you to.


Sorry but this whole idea of making re-rolls the main mechanic which winning or loosing depend upon is silly to me. I want to win based on my choices in terms of the actual tactics of the game, not based on how many re-rolls I do throughout the it. Again, it starts feeling more like a gambling/casino game when described that way rather than an tactical game.
Anyways, I’m sure people will no matter what, might still get it myself, hoping this whole “high variance” dice isn’t as big of a deal as it seems right now.


Using cubes for rerolls IS a tactical choice.

Once again: If you are using black dice with no rerolls available because you've spent all your cubes, or want to save the cubes for a different use, that is a tactical risk you are taking. You make the decision to do that, not the game.


Cool, I just don’t want it to be THE tactical choice that makes you win/loose. Capiche?


It is one choice among many. The combination of positioning and proper rationing of cubes is really the tactical game. The dice add some unpredictability, but you can easily mitigate it. Over the course of a game, your rolls will tend to even out. And if you lose solely because of 1 or 2 bad rolls: Either your strategy was already shit or your opponents strategy was equally good.
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