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Subject: Multi-Verse Goal Scoring? rss

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Harvey Dearden
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As a solo war gamer, my interest lies in exploring a scenario, and it can be profoundly unsatisfactory to find that exploration frustrated by a 'sudden death' die roll. The same thing might occur in opposed play - 'just when things were getting interesting'. Possibly it might be more satisfactory to 'take back' the offending die roll (/card draw, whatever) and nominate a new multi-verse scenario branch evolution to explore. Or possibly award a 'goal' to the winning side and then re-roll (awarding a goal for each failed roll) until a continuation is allowed. Play may continue in this manner until the outcome is beyond question (essentially the overwhelming proportion of multi-verse outcomes are the same). Or until BOTH sides reach their VP level, or BOTH sides have breached their army withdrawal rout point level (or whatever).

Instead of just 1-0 or 0-1, we now have the possibility of e.g., 3-2, 1-5 etc.

Any merit in this? Perhaps this is old territory?
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Harvey Dearden
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If I may offer a counter argument for my proposal; perhaps the possible pain of sudden death is necessary if the tensions of the narrative are to be maintained? Poker without real stakes becomes pointless?
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Russ Williams
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If I understand your proposal, you're suggesting rolling back and replaying from various key branch points in the game play. Then look at the combine results from all those histories (e.g. "The Romans won in 7 of the 10 timelines I explored!")

Which sounds like a fun idea, but has two drawbacks:

1. Of course it would take more time (potentially much more time depending on how many branches you want to explore, and how early in the game the branches occur).

2. Rolling back repeatedly would seem rather difficult in practice when playing with a physical boardgame, so it would seem like you'd really need to do this via a software implementation of the game.
 
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Harvey Dearden
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The idea was that this score would be from a single play through. But upon a sudden death (or clearly losing outcome from a key roll), rather than being obliged to start again, a goal would be conceded for each failing roll until a successful roll allows a continuation.

One of the things I struggle with in solo play is low granularity decision points - where essentially the whole game can turn on a single roll. But on the other hand, if I get to pick & choose which rolls I'm going to let stand, then I think this is likely to weaken the narrative engagement?

I daresay the idea is half-baked but I thought I'd put it out there...
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Enrico Viglino
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In the event that it feels a game ends too early, I'll sometimes
just keep playing after the end. I'm not too fond of games that
rely on a single event.
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Harvey Dearden
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Enrico,

Thanks for contributing; after the many hours I have spent in your company (so to speak), it feels like quite a privilege. I was watching your review of 'The Hunters' earlier, where you discuss the odds of the captain cracking his skull - what a rubbish way to end! But an undeniable possibility. (I haven't played the game.) To re-roll to bypass this result would take you into another universe branch (with 1 goal to the Allies)- or is that just a fancy name for cheating?

In hex-and-counter maybe the implication is that you should plan to avoid these single roll possibilities (unless you are bust anyway)? But it seems sometimes the game simply isn't structured to allow such avoidance.

The autistic pedant in me doesn't want to be making judgement calls about what should be allowed to stand.

To quote Monica from 'Friends'; 'The rules are there to control the fun'.
 
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Captain Nemo
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I think every game ends with a single die roll, if it uses dice. I should have thought the two key points are:
1Are there many rolls or only a Few?
2How do I influence the dice rolls to stack probabilities in my favour?

The better and more interesting games ensure there are as many as possible within the game constraints and that the player has a significant input to creating the odds. Then a last roll will complete a process that was developing throughout the game.
 
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Enrico Viglino
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CaissiaC wrote:
To re-roll to bypass this result would take you into another universe branch (with 1 goal to the Allies)- or is that just a fancy name for cheating?


Meh, there's no such thing as 'cheating' if everyone involved is into
the idea. And solo, it's easy to get agreement.

I don't really like the idea of 'switching universes' because I'd
rather see what develops from a hopeless situation. Of course, if
it's a real insta-loss, that's not a concern.
 
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Harvey Dearden
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An arrow in the eye is another rubbish way to end, but a 1066 game without that possibility would seem lacking? Presumably there are universes where that didn't happen.
 
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Philip Kitching
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CaissiaC wrote:
An arrow in the eye is another rubbish way to end, but a 1066 game without that possibility would seem lacking? Presumably there are universes where that didn't happen.


Universes like the one we live in?



However, 1066 is a good example of a battle that could end too early on a single die roll.

What if the Anglo-Danish army is winning or if it could retire in good order and elect a new leader whilst the Norman army was too battered to follow up?
 
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Russ Williams
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CaissiaC wrote:
The idea was that this score would be from a single play through. But upon a sudden death (or clearly losing outcome from a key roll), rather than being obliged to start again, a goal would be conceded for each failing roll until a successful roll allows a continuation.

Aha, OK, yeah that sounds more practically doable then multiple playouts to the end from various branching points.

In practice I don't seem to mind unusual game-changing random events like that, though, since indeed they do happen in reality, after all. (And they can be amusingly dramatic in a game.) So I am unlikely to use the idea in my soloing of 2-player games.
 
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Carl Paradis
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CaissiaC wrote:
An arrow in the eye is another rubbish way to end, but a 1066 game without that possibility would seem lacking? Presumably there are universes where that didn't happen.


In fact it seems that Harold did not die from an Arrow through the eye... So there! whistle

https://www.historytoday.com/martin-foys/shot-through-eye-an...

http://www.mercedesrochelle.com/wordpress/?p=854
 
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Enrico Viglino
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licinius wrote:
CaissiaC wrote:
An arrow in the eye is another rubbish way to end, but a 1066 game without that possibility would seem lacking? Presumably there are universes where that didn't happen.


In fact it seems that Harold did not die from an Arrow through the eye... So there! whistle

https://www.historytoday.com/martin-foys/shot-through-eye-an...

http://www.mercedesrochelle.com/wordpress/?p=854


But...he almost certainly did die.
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Carl Paradis
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calandale wrote:
licinius wrote:
CaissiaC wrote:
An arrow in the eye is another rubbish way to end, but a 1066 game without that possibility would seem lacking? Presumably there are universes where that didn't happen.


In fact it seems that Harold did not die from an Arrow through the eye... So there! whistle

https://www.historytoday.com/martin-foys/shot-through-eye-an...

http://www.mercedesrochelle.com/wordpress/?p=854


But...he almost certainly did die.


Agreed.
 
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