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Subject: Elemental Infusion Immersion rss

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Stuart Nobel
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Okay, I’ve read the FAQ and multiple threads on elemental infusion timing, waning and use but can’t convince the Spellweaver in my party that it makes sense THEMATICALLY that she can’t use the mana that she just generated on the same turn.

Has this been explained thematically in a convincing way as I’m losing the immersion battle.

As a reward I’ll share the amazing way we track invisibility in our adventure if I get an answer that conveys this mechanism thematically!
 
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Dennis Harrison
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How about this:

I think of the elemental infusion as the residue of the spell that was cast. It is leftover from the spell itself and therefore isn't really usable until the spell effects have been completed.
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Billy McBoatface
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Here's another:
The action that generates the infusion powers up the mana. This takes a few seconds, and you can't use it until it's fully powered up...by which time you've finished your actions.
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Karn
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- Like other liquids, the mana potion takes time to digest and become effective
- Uncorking the mana bottle releases vapors which disorient the character
- The potion bottle has a slow release mechanism to prevent over-exposure
- It takes time for the element to reach full potency achieve equilibrium, only then is it effective

These are the justifications I use when I play my Spellweaver.
I hate the fact that you can't consume elements when you create them, as you always run the risk of the monsters using them instead.
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Clayton Threadgill
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Thematically?

The actions on the cards all represent things happening much more quickly in story-time. While we get to argue about who moves where and attacks what for minutes or hours between turns, every round represents a few seconds for the characters. The 2 actions that make up each turn actually represent one coordinated motion for your character. The characters and monsters take turns using their abilities, but that just represents who is slightly faster in the hustle and bustle of an extended fight. Even a long rest is really just a character taking a moment to catch their breath.

To power up an ability that quickly, obviously the mana needs to already be in place when you start the attack/spell/dash/etc. If you wait until you're moving to charge up an attack you are doing at the same time, it's already too late.

-----

I also like to think of the first elemental infusion abilities I played with,
Spoiler (click to reveal)
which were the Tinkerer's level 1 AoE attacks.
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Ink Bomb and Flamethrower let you mess up a group of enemies, and only afterward do you get to look around and notice that the room is covered in ink/on fire.
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michele c
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You throw a fireball. A few seconds elapse. The smoke dissipates. Some of the furniture are on fire. *By now your turn is already over*

Anyway, the above was just to throw you a bone, the correct answer to your question is: the game is balanced around this mechanic, changing it will likely break some things, which are hard to predict without playtesting. Your friend should stick with it, if he wants to experience this game in full. He is free to cheat house rule as much as he wants, though.

Rules are usually inspired from theme, but the caveats and subtleties should be defined by balance. In this specific case: thematic you create fire with your action, hence there is a game mechanism that reflects that. Balance-wise it was thought to be batter, if the energy was available from the end of the round. Theme explains most of it, it doesn't need to explain 100% of everything.
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Dwight Sullivan
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djh78729 wrote:
How about this:

I think of the elemental infusion as the residue of the spell that was cast. It is leftover from the spell itself and therefore isn't really usable until the spell effects have been completed.

This is what it is. Its not mana like in MTG.
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Nope No
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How about they are birthing that element that starts as an infant but grows to maturity and dies at an accelerated rate? When you make an action a small ray of light is born or a seedling sprouts or whatever. That happens when you create the element and use your move. Within minutes it becomes a beam of light or a beanstalk that can be manipulated but by that time your turn is already past.

By your next turn, the waning phase, the element is fully powered but past middle aged for their short lifespan. If it is not used, by the end of this round it will continue to age quickly and fizzle out of existence or wither away to return to the earth.
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SoCal Steve
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Trying to make this spoiler free...

So we are saying that character 1 moves and creates wind energy, then uses an attack which consumes the energy to give them a bonus, This would not work because both actions are technically happening at the same time and the wind energy takes time to fully infuse.

Meanwhile, if a monster creates wind energy this turn, then the character mentioned above can use the wind energy even though they are technically both performing their actions at the same time?

Also, if wind energy is waning and the above mentioned character moves and creates wind energy (strong) then uses their attack (which would have consumed the waning wind energy) do they lose the ability to use that waning wind energy (because they can't use the energy they created even though it was already there) or is the wind energy still considered to be strong at the end of the characters turn even though they moved and created wind energy before attacking and consuming the wind energy created last round?
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Philipp Schuster
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Quote:
Also, if wind energy is waning and the above mentioned character moves and creates wind energy (strong) then uses their attack (which would have consumed the waning wind energy) do they lose the ability to use that waning wind energy (because they can't use the energy they created even though it was already there) or is the wind energy still considered to be strong at the end of the characters turn even though they moved and created wind energy before attacking and consuming the wind energy created last round?


The character could use the waning wind energy to get a bonus, and at the end of its turn the wind (from the move) would be created.
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Stuart Nobel
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Thank you all for sharing your thoughts.

I'm going to go with:

On the Spellweaver's turn her two card actions are happening as one coordinated action and the whole round is over in seconds not allowing enough time for the infused element created by the action to be used in that turn. I think its also to be aware that the mana in GH is not like the mana in MtG.

The reward goes (in no particular order) to Clayton, Dwight, Billy and Dennis.



Full picture credit and 'genius' idea goes to:
Ben Roberts
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https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10155175186231254&se...

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Diane Mountford
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wmshub wrote:
Here's another:
The action that generates the infusion powers up the mana. This takes a few seconds, and you can't use it until it's fully powered up...by which time you've finished your actions.


I was thinking along these same lines. The elemental forces are remote from us (otherwise, everyone would be able to access them), and they take a while to coax out of the elemental plane.
 
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J D
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Bludgeon wrote:





Why only sleeving 2 standees? whistle
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Diane Mountford
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SoCalSteve wrote:
Trying to make this spoiler free...

So we are saying that character 1 moves and creates wind energy, then uses an attack which consumes the energy to give them a bonus, This would not work because both actions are technically happening at the same time and the wind energy takes time to fully infuse.

Meanwhile, if a monster creates wind energy this turn, then the character mentioned above can use the wind energy even though they are technically both performing their actions at the same time?

Also, if wind energy is waning and the above mentioned character moves and creates wind energy (strong) then uses their attack (which would have consumed the waning wind energy) do they lose the ability to use that waning wind energy (because they can't use the energy they created even though it was already there) or is the wind energy still considered to be strong at the end of the characters turn even though they moved and created wind energy before attacking and consuming the wind energy created last round?


para 1: True. Elements you infuse this turn do not arrive until the very end of your turn. And are therefore not useable this turn.

para 2: If the monster has lower initiative than you, then the element is infused at the end of the monster's turn and is therefore fair game for you to use on your turn. If the monster goes after you, then, no, you cannot use that element.

para 3: The room is full of waning wind energy. You do whatever it is you do to summon more wind energy. While waiting for that wind energy to arrive, you use up the waning wind energy. At the end of your turn (as usual) the wind energy you infused becomes strong.
 
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Philipp Schuster
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Quote:
Why only sleeving 2 standees? whistle


Isn't that obvious? there are only two cloaks of invisibility available
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Dwight Sullivan
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Did version one not have miniatures for the characters?

We put an invisible token on the board to mark the location, and remove the character miniature placing it on the player mat. I like this because it looks they are invisible.
 
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Stuart Nobel
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No, I discussed the option of purchasing miniatures with my daughter at the time of the kickstarter. She stated that there was no point in getting miniatures as I would never paint them so the best option was to get the standees so we have full technicolour. The miniatures are very nice but they look a bit out of place on the table with all the monster standees.
 
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J D
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Complex wrote:
Quote:
Why only sleeving 2 standees? whistle


Isn't that obvious? there are only two cloaks of invisibility available


Okay, that is awesome.
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SoCal Steve
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DMountford wrote:
SoCalSteve wrote:
So we are saying that character 1 moves and creates wind energy, then uses an attack which consumes the energy to give them a bonus, This would not work because both actions are technically happening at the same time and the wind energy takes time to fully infuse.

Meanwhile, if a monster creates wind energy this turn, then the character mentioned above can use the wind energy even though they are technically both performing their actions at the same time?
para 1: True. Elements you infuse this turn do not arrive until the very end of your turn. And are therefore not useable this turn.

para 2: If the monster has lower initiative than you, then the element is infused at the end of the monster's turn and is therefore fair game for you to use on your turn. If the monster goes after you, then, no, you cannot use that element.

But all creatures are theoretically starting and ending their turn at the same time. So if it doesn't make sense that a creature can not use energy they made but someone else can. I get that This is how the rules are written, but doesn't it make sense to have elements infused at the end of the round so no one gets to use them OR have them infused exactly at time of play so that they can be used immediately?
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Clayton Threadgill
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SoCalSteve wrote:
But all creatures are theoretically starting and ending their turn at the same time. So if it doesn't make sense that a creature can not use energy they made but someone else can. I get that This is how the rules are written, but doesn't it make sense to have elements infused at the end of the round so no one gets to use them OR have them infused exactly at time of play so that they can be used immediately?

If you go after the monster, you get to react to everything else they did - moving to a new melee spot, healing damage done, etc. - so it only makes sense that you get to react to their elements. I think this is a case of how it has to be in order for this to be a turn-based game.
 
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Stabby Crow
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I'm having trouble understanding this mechanic as well. What is happening in the room where we're all standing? I use Fire Orbs, an attack which has an elemental affinity associated with it and I 'infuse the battlefield with that element'. What does that even mean?

Does it mean my fire orbs don't actually do fire damage because the elemental affinity only activates by moving the corresponding token to the 'strong' section on the elemental infusion table at the end of my turn.

Or does it mean that my Fire Orbs are doing fire damage and that I set fire to the room with them and now anyone else who has an attack with the same 'elemental affinity' can make use of it? And when they use their elemental affinity attack doesn't the icon on the table stay at 'strong'?

Oh, hang on, I think I see it. Now that the affinity is activated, someone can use an attack - like Flame Strike - which does base damage but also, if the corresponding elemental affinity is active - will apply a wound as well.

That feels right. I wonder if it is? :o

 
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Darren Nakamura
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I think you got there by the end of your post.

You cast Fire Orbs, which deal some fixed amount of damage but put out a fiery energy onto the battlefield. Then you cast Flame Strike, which is a little fire spell on its own, but when cast in the presence of the fiery energy from last turn, makes it hurt more.

Maybe it's just because I'm a chemist, but I almost think about it in terms of endothermic and exothermic reactions. Fire Orbs is exothermic and Flame Strike is endothermic.
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Stabby Crow
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Okay. Thanks Darren. It's helpful for me if game mechanics aren't too abstracted, and at first I couldn't tell what was happening in the room, but I've got it now.
 
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