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Rise and Decline of the Third Reich» Forums » Rules

Subject: Attrition Retreat rss

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brian hejmanowski
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OK here's the situation in a highly contested game. The Germans have forced the exploiting Russians to retreat 3 hexes by attrition. If after retreating off the first hex and subsequent occupation by the Germans it leaves no alternative hexes available for the other Russian units to retreat to because the Germans have cut off their retreat by occupying the hex. In addition, other German units already occupied the hexes behind the exploiting units. So now the question is whats the definition of "retreat"? As the German player my position is that the Russian units are eliminated because there are no hexes available to RETREAT to. My Russian friend says RETREAT is ambiguous and he can RETREAT by "advancing" into German controlled hexes. My point is advancing is not a retreat. The Edition 4 Rules clearly use the term RETREAT and not occupy any vacate hex.
Please offer comments......
 
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Patrick Bauer
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It sounds as if you're doing it incorrectly from the start. No retreating unit ever moves more than one hex in 3R.

If you got a 3H result. The attacker chooses three enemy occupies hexes ... all at once, and after defender attrition losses. You do not choose one at a time chasing a unit, nor choose vacant hexes along a route.

If you chose all the possible retreat hexes of a unit, then it too is eliminated. However, if the only retreat route is forward into an enemy hex then that's where the unit goes. Essentially you have to surround the unit with your own counters and chosen hexes to eliminate it.
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Oh my God They Banned Kenny
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Patrick is correct. In particular, you should reread 18.34 which describes this quite clearly:

Quote:
18.34 Once the attacker has designated all the hexes which he wishes to occupy and is entitled to by the Attrition Combat die roll, the defender vacates all such hexes simultaneously followed by the attacker‘s simultaneous occupation of those hexes. The vacate/occupy process is not done one hex at a time; all hexes must be vacated before the attacker advances to occupy the first vacated hex, but the defender cannot retreat into a hex which the attacker will select to occupy in his advance....


It is possible to "cut off" the retreat of a target given a multiple hex gain by the attacker, by selecting hexes that represent the only allowable retreat path. There is nothing that prohibits a unit from retreating into an enemy controlled but vacant hex. Case 18.33 covers allowable retreats, with clarification from a DQB. There is no requirement that Russian units retreat the the "east". They may retreat into any allowable hex, as described.
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brian hejmanowski
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The roll of the die required 3 enemy hexes to be vacated, not retreating 3 hexes by the same unit I get that. Unfortunately what everyone is saying is that the Russians aren't required to retreat east but can go to any vacate enemy controlled hex even though its considered an advance. Doesn't make sense to me. The rules describe the vacating of a hex by attrition as a "retreat", retreat to me means back to your original hex or hexes, or at the very least east toward your original lines. Moving west is an advance and not sure if that's what the spirit of the rules intended....thank you for your input....
 
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Charles Finch
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consider you are being shot at from "behind" your lines...most folks tend to run in the direction no one is shooting from, so this seems reasonable and realistic - head west until you cannot, then surrender
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Patrick Bauer
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Briano662 wrote:
The roll of the die required 3 enemy hexes to be vacated, not retreating 3 hexes by the same unit I get that. Unfortunately what everyone is saying is that the Russians aren't required to retreat east but can go to any vacate enemy controlled hex even though its considered an advance. Doesn't make sense to me. The rules describe the vacating of a hex by attrition as a "retreat", retreat to me means back to your original hex or hexes, or at the very least east toward your original lines. Moving west is an advance and not sure if that's what the spirit of the rules intended....thank you for your input....


There are DQBs that do (though not entirely clearly) delineate that you can't retreat to enemy controlled hexes if friendly ones are available. Same for non-ZOC hexes over ZOC ones.

But yes, surround a Russian adjacent to a vacant German controlled Berlin, and it can "retreat" westward into a game winner. (PS ... don't choose that hex for retreat)

In fact, that may be your answer. You are not required to choose 3 hexes. The attacker can elect to not choose some or all of the H results.
 
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Oh my God They Banned Kenny
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Briano662 wrote:
The roll of the die required 3 enemy hexes to be vacated, not retreating 3 hexes by the same unit I get that. Unfortunately what everyone is saying is that the Russians aren't required to retreat east but can go to any vacate enemy controlled hex even though its considered an advance. Doesn't make sense to me. The rules describe the vacating of a hex by attrition as a "retreat", retreat to me means back to your original hex or hexes, or at the very least east toward your original lines. Moving west is an advance and not sure if that's what the spirit of the rules intended....thank you for your input....


Well, that has to do with your preconception of what constitutes "retreat" as opposed to how it is defined in the game. If you want to prevent an enemy unit from "retreating" into a particular hex, then you have to occupy that hex with some sort of unit. Simply being the last to have passed through that hex isn't sufficient. It's not an "advance" when a unit "retreats" in what you consider the wrong direction, because the game defines an "advance" to be occupation of a hex previously occupied by an enemy unit which has been destroyed in combat (or displaced due to an attrition result). Should the Germans similarly be limited to advances in an easterly direction? Should it not be considered an "advance" if you seek to occupy a hex which is to the west, closer to Germany?
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brian hejmanowski
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Point well taken.....
 
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