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After having played a good amount of gloom (somewhere around 50 scenarios at this point) I have come to the conclusion that having to plan "1 turn in advance" for the elements creates more of a headache than it's worth. Any savvy player can easily set up their elements for the following turn. But it's just this fiddly little aspect of the game that doesn't seem worth it.
 
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michael ray
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I think it would only be OP when playing against monsters that can use elements, like the demons. Otherwise, it seems fine.
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Chris Postema
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There are lots of monsters that can "steal" your elements. You would be taking away key abilities from them in doing so.
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Nathan Ehlers
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phillipsjr2 wrote:
After having played a good amount of gloom (somewhere around 50 scenarios at this point) I have come to the conclusion that having to plan "1 turn in advance" for the elements creates more of a headache than it's worth. Any savvy player can easily set up their elements for the following turn. But it's just this fiddly little aspect of the game that doesn't seem worth it.


There are various monsters that'll eat the elements. Conversely, your jerk friends might use them. The rule allows for those things to happen. To get around it, you have to go last then first, which isn't always optimal for whatever you're doing, particularly if said monsters are going to beat on you in the mean time. It also encourages team work.

It seems like another one of those rules meant to make the game more complex at the cost of thematic rationality.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Incidentally, the most powerful immediate combos revolve around the mana potions that create two or more elements. Being able to fill the board with mana and then immediately drain it means you can completely heal your life with one item and practically kill everything in a room with another. At a certain point, this makes the game so easy it undermines the fun.
 
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doc
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what are you looking for here, someone to sign off that ignoring rules/mechanics you don't care for is ok?

well sure, it's your copy of the game - do whatever you want.
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N F
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I'd say at least 2-3 levels higher monsters to balance. Unless all characters are like Brute and almost don't use elements.
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Darren Nakamura
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Relampagos wrote:
I'd say at least 2-3 levels higher monsters to balance. Unless all characters are like Brute and almost don't use elements.


That seems like a bit much to me. It would make some classes easier to use (Cragheart, Spellweaver, Mindthief, some of the locked classes), but it would be worth maybe a +1 bump in difficulty over what you're normally used to. For some classes (Brute, Scoundrel, Tinkerer), it would hardly make any difference.
 
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I believe it changes things quite a bit. Normal rules have their benefits as well on one hand it's nice that you can generate elements before using them and use them while keeping it strong (example generate fire, use fire, fire will still be strong at the end of your turn) which would not be possible if elements are used immediately.

This variable lessens the burden on planning and as others have mentioned has a negative impact on monsters (since they were planned with element generation and a possibility of consumption after).

I personally don't endorse it, I agree with the right classes it's a 1 or 2 difficulty bump, but it goes beyond the difficulty bump in terms of strategy. If you don't like element generation just don't play with classes that use it.
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The game is all about planning ahead, then changing your plans to fit the new circumstance.

If you don't want to do the planning, then what about the game appeals to you?
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Yeah really just a thought more than anything. I don't see it as benefiting the players too much. But I've had multiple people say "that's stupid" when introducing them to the game and teaching them the element system.
 
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Victor Ferreira
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tylerm11 wrote:
what are you looking for here, someone to sign off that ignoring rules/mechanics you don't care for is ok?

The question in the title is about how it would affect game balance, so they're probably looking for other peoples insights, opinions, and experiences, and they're probably not looking for thinly veiled snark.
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I wish everyone here had played the old video game Chrono Cross: it had a very similar Element Field that would change based on what you and the monsters did. It was a puzzle within the game to manipulate the field so that the elemental conditions would be exactly what you needed to make your attacks more powerful.

Mechanically, as the OP already knows, the elements are a puzzle just like in Chrono Cross; they ARE part of the challenge of the game. So you're not just house-ruling a fiddly mechanic, you're removing part of the game's challenge. It would be like saying you can just start building before owning all three colors of a property type in Monopoly or saying you can trade cards freely without being in the same location in a whole host of games. Sun class and Moon/Eclipse class as an example require multiple turns to setup their combos as a NECESSARY evil to prevent them from being too strong. Even the Cragheart and Spellweaver could pull off one optimal turn after another without this mechanic.

Nothing anyone says here can prevent someone form playing their copy the way they like. But, I can't really recommend a default difficulty bump because it changes the game too much for some classes and not at all for others. If you were playing say Brute/Tinkerer/Two Minis as a combo, that party would certainly be annoyed that there's a +1 difficulty now. However, for certain combos, I'm not convinced +1 would be enough!
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Darren Nakamura
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phillipsjr2 wrote:
Yeah really just a thought more than anything. I don't see it as benefiting the players too much. But I've had multiple people say "that's stupid" when introducing them to the game and teaching them the element system.


I assume you countered with the only reasonable response to that:

"No, you're stupid."

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johnnie mackey
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It breaks the game pretty substantially. The game is completely balanced around elements taking a turn to use and changing it would turbo charge the players. If you want a face roll experience then do it i guess.
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balzac23 wrote:
It breaks the game pretty substantially. The game is completely balanced around elements taking a turn to use and changing it would turbo charge the players.

I of course agree with this. When I am explaining the game to others and they do not agree with something I tell them the game is huge and its has lots of moving parts. I ask them to wait until they understand the whole picture.

When I have explained the whole element infusion I explain that the game is about planning ahead.
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Robert Marney
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The most overpowered cards in Gloomhaven are balanced primarily by requiring the user to consume 2+ elements, meaning they take a full turn of setup or precise combos with other party members. With this limitation removed, it makes the best classes even stronger. Want to murder an elite ooze and its 3 normal friends by initiative 15 on round 1? No problem, Eclipse and Triforce are on the job. They don't even have to coordinate, since they can produce all their own elements and it doesn't matter who goes first.

One other weird balance issue is with the random items that create and consume elements. Those get a lot better, since you don't have to plan ahead for them; you can just treat them as a single item that, together, taps to give you the bonus immediately.
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Gu├░brandur Magn├║sson
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Some of the strongest cards in this game are limited by needing the forethought and dedicated support of elements. I.E the balancing factor to stuff like Frigid Apparition is that you're mandated to play a ranged attack in the round before. Eclypse has to
Spoiler (click to reveal)
perform a large variety of sub-par dark generating actions
to properly function.

I you could basically put the rainbow sticker on any move action and then same-round trigger whatever element strikes your fancy then the entire element system would be redundant.
 
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Nyles Breecher
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It's not OP, it's just boring. 2-turn element planning is far more interesting than, "I want this effect now, I'll just play a card right now to get it." Why bother planning your cards at all?

Has anybody in your party ever asked "Can anybody make X?" If you can make an use elements in a single turn, you eliminate an important element of planning.

It also allows for more uncertainty and tactically rich opportunities to happen. Especially when you decide to not use an element, because another effect now seems better for battle.
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tsuruki23 wrote:
Some of the strongest cards in this game are limited by needing the forethought and dedicated support of elements. I.E the balancing factor to stuff like Frigid Apparition is that you're mandated to play a ranged attack in the round before. Eclypse has to
Spoiler (click to reveal)
perform a large variety of sub-par dark generating actions
to properly function.

I you could basically put the rainbow sticker on any move action and then same-round trigger whatever element strikes your fancy then the entire element system would be redundant.


I guess all I'm saying though is... how much different is it that you have to do it one round in advance? All of that is completely true EXCEPT for the fact that it all just happens anyway. Plastering those stickers on is equally effective you just use them the round before. And mana potions can effectively be used 90% on "your turn" by RAW, just have a party member buy them. My original point is that it's almost effectively EXACTLY the same thing but ends up just being finnicky for the sake of creating "depth." Sure now and then a monster might eat an element or there would be some toe-stepping or an unexpected thing might make your plan suboptimal... but at the end of the day the people saying it would up the difficulty by TWO TIERS I think are being silly.
 
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mike heim
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Likely unbalance classes...

Spellweaver and Triforce would be insanely powerful.
 
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Well, the further ahead you have to plan your cards, the more likely there is to be an interesting choice of "do I follow my plan or do I change it".

I'm playing Cragheart right now, and finding that pretty common. I create Earth one turn, planning to use it the next... but next turn, enemies move and I'd *really* like to do something else, but then I've wasted my Earth. Definitely had hands where I get to the last 4 cards in hand and realize they're all my earth-consumption ones, because each time I'd planned to use them something else came up.
 
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ftl_ftw wrote:
I'm playing Cragheart right now, and finding that pretty common. I create Earth one turn, planning to use it the next... but next turn, enemies move and I'd *really* like to do something else, but then I've wasted my Earth. Definitely had hands where I get to the last 4 cards in hand and realize they're all my earth-consumption ones, because each time I'd planned to use them something else came up.

This is me every time I play.
 
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Craggy is particularly vulnerable to having to change their plan, because they always go late. They make Earth, and then the next turn, after two of their teammates and five monsters have gone, the board looks completely different and the card that uses Earth can't be used any more.
 
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Jeff C
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kleep wrote:
Craggy is particularly vulnerable to having to change their plan, because they always go late. They make Earth, and then the next turn, after two of their teammates and five monsters have gone, the board looks completely different and the card that uses Earth can't be used any more.


That's when you start dropping boulders on your Frenemies and ding them with some damage or just run up on them and make them take some damage if they keep using your element. Craggy is the one player you don't want to mess with because he can almost always find a way to hurt you every turn if need be. Eventually they get the hint and leave your earth alone.
 
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