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Subject: Range clarification rss

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j biscoe
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Just want to make sure I'm playing this right:
If an enemy has a range of, say, 9, they still cannot target a hero if that hero is positioned diagonally or around a corner from the enemy's location, even if they are only one or two tiles away?
And if they cannot target a hero to make a basic attack, they then will also not trigger any special abilities that similarly need a target?
Thanks!
 
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Greg Kleinfall
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jbisc wrote:
Just want to make sure I'm playing this right:
If an enemy has a range of, say, 9, they still cannot target a hero if that hero is positioned diagonally or around a corner from the enemy's location, even if they are only one or two tiles away?
And if they cannot target a hero to make a basic attack, they then will also not trigger any special abilities that similarly need a target?
Thanks!


There are no exceptions that I can find to the straight line (vertical or horizontal) rule on range. Range 9 is still a straight line. I believe Frank, the designer, stated that the extended range is to accommodate possible future expansions, add-ons, etc...

Your targeting assumption is correct.
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j biscoe
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That's how I've been playing it, but I ran into a bit of uncertainty yesterday, which revolved around the special ability "charge." I was not in range of the creature's basic attack (by virtue of being one diagonal tile away), but when time came to apply that special ability, which plays as a combination of "teleport" & "knockback" (I think this is correct- working from memory here, so apologies if I'm wrong & creating more confusion), I was on the fence about how to apply it. If I can't be targeted by the basic attack, then abilities also won't trigger, is the understanding I was working from, but common sense would seem to dictate that "charge" would still fire, at least the "teleport" portion of it, and I was then doubly confused because the description of "knockback" seems to associate it explicitly with combat/basic attacks, which came earlier in the sequence. Perhaps this would all fit more nicely under a thread about the "charge" ability, but it made me reconsider my basic assumptions about target selection in the first place. Whew, this seems long-winded. Sorry! Hope this wasn't confusing, and thanks for the help!
 
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Frank West
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jbisc wrote:
That's how I've been playing it, but I ran into a bit of uncertainty yesterday, which revolved around the special ability "charge." I was not in range of the creature's basic attack (by virtue of being one diagonal tile away), but when time came to apply that special ability, which plays as a combination of "teleport" & "knockback" (I think this is correct- working from memory here, so apologies if I'm wrong & creating more confusion), I was on the fence about how to apply it. If I can't be targeted by the basic attack, then abilities also won't trigger, is the understanding I was working from, but common sense would seem to dictate that "charge" would still fire, at least the "teleport" portion of it, and I was then doubly confused because the description of "knockback" seems to associate it explicitly with combat/basic attacks, which came earlier in the sequence. Perhaps this would all fit more nicely under a thread about the "charge" ability, but it made me reconsider my basic assumptions about target selection in the first place. Whew, this seems long-winded. Sorry! Hope this wasn't confusing, and thanks for the help!


Hey jbisc.

Knockback only applies to characters who have been targetted by a basic attack. Without a priority target, the basic attack, and therefore knockback, wouldn't happen.

Teleport also requires a priority target, without a priority target it doesn't happen.

Charge also doesn't happen if there isn't a priority target, which hopefully follows through clearly with the breakdown above.

---

In general, range is always a straight line, there are 2 groups of abilities to consider:

Priority target abilities and other abilities.

Priority target abilities will only ever happen if something is in straight line range.

Other abilities will always happen, regardless of whether there is a priority target or not.

---

Does that help at all?
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j biscoe
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It does, Frank, and thank you! Have been enjoying the game quite a bit, & I really appreciate your presence here as well! It was said many times during the kickstarter campaign: you really go above & beyond, and we can all see it. Thanks again!
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Frank West
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jbisc wrote:
It does, Frank, and thank you! Have been enjoying the game quite a bit, & I really appreciate your presence here as well! It was said many times during the kickstarter campaign: you really go above & beyond, and we can all see it. Thanks again!


No worries! I'm glad to see you are enjoying the game.
 
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Claudius Moeller
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To me the rules on range could be clearer.

I did not get the above understanding from just reading the rules. The rule on range does not talk about straight lines, just about tiles. Only when it comes to attacking/healing does it say “only in straight lines”.

Maybe a clarification could be put into the FAQs and/or a second edition of the rules.
 
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Frank West
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claumoe wrote:
To me the rules on range could be clearer.

I did not get the above understanding from just reading the rules. The rule on range does not talk about straight lines, just about tiles. Only when it comes to attacking/healing does it say “only in straight lines”.

Maybe a clarification could be put into the FAQs and/or a second edition of the rules.


Hi Claudius, on page 12 of the rule book the very first line under "You Can" says: You can only Attack/Heal in straight lines.

Could you please let me know if you're looking at another section? I'm happy to clarify where I can.

Thanks,

- Frank

 
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Corsaire
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That one threw me, too. Primarily because I anticipate rules to be in the body of the text and checks and Xs as examples of the rules in action rather than actual introduction of rules. Really a question of getting familiar with this game's style. Luckily the game owner gave me an assist with my face palm.
 
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Claudius Moeller
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Hi Frank!

Thanks for answering.
I was looking at the same section.

But for me checking for a priority target seemed to be something different than attacking.
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David Levin
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TheCityofKings wrote:
claumoe wrote:
To me the rules on range could be clearer.

I did not get the above understanding from just reading the rules. The rule on range does not talk about straight lines, just about tiles. Only when it comes to attacking/healing does it say “only in straight lines”.

Maybe a clarification could be put into the FAQs and/or a second edition of the rules.


Hi Claudius, on page 12 of the rule book the very first line under "You Can" says: You can only Attack/Heal in straight lines.

Could you please let me know if you're looking at another section? I'm happy to clarify where I can.

Thanks,

- Frank



The confusion for me is that "Attack/Heal" is a player action, so I was unclear whether a creatures attack must adhere to the same rule.
 
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Frank West
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sefton wrote:
TheCityofKings wrote:
claumoe wrote:
To me the rules on range could be clearer.

I did not get the above understanding from just reading the rules. The rule on range does not talk about straight lines, just about tiles. Only when it comes to attacking/healing does it say “only in straight lines”.

Maybe a clarification could be put into the FAQs and/or a second edition of the rules.


Hi Claudius, on page 12 of the rule book the very first line under "You Can" says: You can only Attack/Heal in straight lines.

Could you please let me know if you're looking at another section? I'm happy to clarify where I can.

Thanks,

- Frank



The confusion for me is that "Attack/Heal" is a player action, so I was unclear whether a creatures attack must adhere to the same rule.


That's interesting, thank you David.

Range works the same for creatures and heroes, I'll look over the wording.
 
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Itai Rosenbaum
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What about something like "Fireball All"?

Let's say none of the heroes are positioned orthogonally to the creature, but are within range - do they get hit with the fireballs?
 
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Frank West
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IronSyndicate wrote:
What about something like "Fireball All"?

Let's say none of the heroes are positioned orthogonally to the creature, but are within range - do they get hit with the fireballs?


Range is always straight lines, so Fireball All only hits characters in straight line range of the creature.
 
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Didier Renard
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I agree with others saying that this could be made clearer. I was looking for clarification about range when determining the priority target and it is not at all obvious that one should apply the same logic as for the player’s attack/heal actions.
 
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Frank West
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If you guys have suggestions on where you think additional information about range should be added, I'd love to hear them.

Currently range is clarified on the same page as priority target. All the priority target descriptions describe "hero in range", with range being described immediately next to it.

Is it just a case of adding a sentence on that page to confirm the creatures use the range description next to them? Or is it another part of the rulebook that is confusing this?

Thanks!
 
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Tom Chick
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TheCityofKings wrote:
If you guys have suggestions on where you think additional information about range should be added, I'd love to hear them.

Currently range is clarified on the same page as priority target. All the priority target descriptions describe "hero in range", with range being described immediately next to it.

Is it just a case of adding a sentence on that page to confirm the creatures use the range description next to them? Or is it another part of the rulebook that is confusing this?

Thanks!


I can't speak for others, but I feel the rules on range are perfectly clear, they're just counterintuitive. A boss with a range of 9 can attack me from way across the map, but he can't attack me when I'm diagonally adjacent to him? I understand it just fine once I appreciate that's the intent of the design, to create sometimes abstract tactical challenges. To force me to figure out ways to dance around the map avoiding monsters that attack more like chess pieces -- rooks, to be specific -- than the monsters you usually fight in fantasy boardgames.

I think that disconnect is making people doubt their understanding of a clearly written rule. That was certainly my initial reaction. "This can't be right..." Until I actually played the game and appreciated why it works that way.

I wonder if it's partly semantic. If a term other than "range" had been used, would it have been less counterintuitive? "Attack vector"? Ugh, that's so sciencey.

-Tom
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Claudius Moeller
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After:
"If you have a range of 3, you can reach across 3 tiles in addition to the tile you are on."

I would add:
"Range is only measured in straight lines."
Or something similar.


The section under "you can" only refers to healing/attacking not to measuring range. I think that is the problem some people (me included) have /had with understanding the rule correctly.


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Al Cott
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Just to add to the above. I found the rules in general to be very logically arranged and clear. But details of range, despite being absolutely critical to the way the game works, was unclear.

For example, I could not tell whether range 1 meant "only current square", "orthogonally adjacent square" or even "5 squares in an orthogonal cross".

The phrase "If you have a range of 3, you can reach across 3 tiles in addition to the tile you are on." is unclear. The "reach across" can mean different things to different people. It is screaming out for a diagram!

But I did find it clear (although counter-intuitive) that range was always straight line and orthogonal.
 
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Frank West
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Thanks guys,

I'll be sure to add a diagram in the update, and will change the "you" to be more generic to be more inclusive of the creatures!
 
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