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Subject: again me, whining... rss

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viszla HR
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I love board games and I adore deck building games. Co-ops are my favorite. I have Legendary Encounters: Alien (with expansion) & Predator. I have Attack on Titans. Everything Aeon's end related. I have Hero Realms just for the campaign. I have LoTR LCG & Xenoshift.
Some are 10/10, some not, but I love them all.

And there is only one thing that I can't stand.
And that happened a few minutes earlier in Dragonfire.

The Wastes of Ancient Empire. Level 1 Adventure. Khm...
First Encounter in front of my 7HP Wizard - Gorgon.



I look at the card. And again. And once more.

OK, game over.

I know that Dragonfire is not walk in the wilder... park.
I know there is a strong luck factor in card games. Must be. And I'm fine with that. But here we talking about the game that ends before it was started. It's impossible to kill that guy with two level 1 characters. Simply impossible.
Oh, and I didn't mention a few bonus tokens... just for more fun...

What's the point of that? To spend 10 min to set up the game which is over after 15 seconds?

Please, give me 5% chance. Give me something. Even 1%. Give me a little hope that I can do that.

Just not like this. Such a shame.


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Steve Beeman
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Only this person it's in front of has the terror applied. The other player can play cards against it normally.
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Fred Buchholz
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viszla wrote:
I love board games and I adore deck building games. Co-ops are my favorite. I have Legendary Encounters: Alien (with expansion) & Predator. I have Attack on Titans. Everything Aeon's end related. I have Hero Realms just for the campaign. I have LoTR LCG & Xenoshift.
Some are 10/10, some not, but I love them all.

And there is only one thing that I can't stand.
And that happened a few minutes earlier in Dragonfire.

The Wastes of Ancient Empire. Level 1 Adventure. Khm...
First Encounter in front of my 7HP Wizard - Gorgon.



I look at the card. And again. And once more.

OK, game over.

I know that Dragonfire is not walk in the wilder... park.
I know there is a strong luck factor in card games. Must be. And I'm fine with that. But here we talking about the game that ends before it was started. It's impossible to kill that guy with two level 1 characters. Simply impossible.
Oh, and I didn't mention a few bonus tokens... just for more fun...

What's the point of that? To spend 10 min to set up the game which is over after 15 seconds?

Please, give me 5% chance. Give me something. Even 1%. Give me a little hope that I can do that.

Just not like this. Such a shame.




What is your race. IF you started with 4 GP or so you can buy useful cards if available
What is the other player race/class, starting gold and what were they facing?
You each have a bless.
What's in the market?
A cloud of daggers cast by a wizard as an assist, a flaming oil, a javelin as assist, a glory and a stealth and it is dead in one turn. Other combinations come to mind, It's just very hard, no matter how many players are in the game
Also if you did a dungeon crawl first you may have 5+ xp so what are your backgrounds/traits (if any) You might have a magic item that can slow it down for one round and let you and your associate get cards to deal with it. At worst, scoop reshuffle decks and start again, at least you got one experiance point for starting the scene
 
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viszla HR
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SteoanK wrote:
Only this person it's in front of has the terror applied. The other player can play cards against it normally.


we tried 10 times. Reset, and again, reset and again.

First you need to wait to have 4 cards in hand, and Bless (assist) in other player hand. Until then (with tokens you are already at 3 HP) And after that you need to clear 5 new levels with only one card every turn.

And other player is with his Encounter and a few tokens more.

I would like to be wrong, but sorry, that is IMPOSSIBLE.

In some crazy scenario, you can kill Gorgon, but at that point, your game is anyway already over.

 
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Dren608 wrote:

What is your race. IF you started with 4 GP or so you can buy useful cards if available
What is the other player race/class, starting gold and what were they facing?
You each have a bless.
What's in the market?
A cloud of daggers cast by a wizard as an assist, a flaming oil, a javelin as assist, a glory and a stealth and it is dead in one turn. Other combinations come to mind, It's just very hard, no matter how many players are in the game
Also if you did a dungeon crawl first you may have 5+ xp so what are your backgrounds/traits (if any) You might have a magic item that can slow it down for one round and let you and your associate get cards to deal with it. At worst, scoop reshuffle decks and start again, at least you got one experience point for starting the scene


Wizard (+ Devotion Class), 7HP, with very nice 6 starting gold, but there is no time to draw any useful buy from the market.

Another character is Rogue (+ Martial Class) with 9Hp and only 2 cards in starting hand.
 
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Steve Beeman
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No, you've just already given up.

Your complaint was that it was in front of the wizard, ok then, looks like you're other character will need to take some hits and help out the wizard.

Might take a couple turns but the gorgon will go down. Some of those damage levels are single damage which the wizard could certainly help with along with playing assists on the other person's turn AND buying market cards that do higher damage.

I'm sorry but it's NOT impossible.
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B C Z
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To round out the questions:

What was in front of the Rogue?
What was in the Market?
 
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I'll also make another observation.

Rogue/Martial + Wizard/Devotion is a difficult pairing for the Campaign.

You're playing non-humans, so you get a bit more HP, but at the cost of early gold, which is going to sting in early scenes.

We took a human pairing with the same classes and secondaries through the campaign as an experiment. We failed Wastes so many times we thought it was hopeless, but then two things happened when we got to 30 xp.

1: We did the Dungeon Crawl for level 3 and pulled out at least one useful uncommon item in the Magic Item draw.
2: We got to swap in 3 point cards (Flaming Oils) which helped immensely.

The game compensated for us when we had failed enough times.

Since then, that pairing has breezed through the content without much difficulty. The two characters really became strong with the right Feature choices at about level 3.

---

As to the presented concern -- without painting a complete picture, it's hard to say what's wrong or if you really are in an 'impossible' situation. If both go unconscious, then take the xp, shuffle up and deal again. Don't 'scoop' the game though. Use it to learn. You'll eventually stop being afraid of the bigger creatures and will welcome them because if their huge payouts.
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SteoanK wrote:

I'm sorry but it's NOT impossible.


I'm sorry but it was. 100%. But thank you for your optimism.

And we didn't give up. We tried 10+ times.

Again, we did manage to kill Gorgon once, but at that point, the game was already over.

Please try to do that with our two characters, (the second encounter was Corrupted Hyena ) + ofc a few tokens from adventure setup.
And go, arrange market offer however you like.

I don't wanna think what will happen if we manage to draw Gorgon at the beginning of the second scene, with our HP already seriously down.
That will be sooo funny.
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Steve Beeman
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You're going to have a much harder time later on. Good luck.
 
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byronczimmer wrote:

As to the presented concern -- without painting a complete picture, it's hard to say what's wrong or if you really are in an 'impossible' situation.




and setup market however you like. no difference.
 
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SteoanK wrote:
You're going to have a much harder time later on. Good luck.


Oh, I have no worries. It can't be harder than impossible
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Steve Beeman
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viszla wrote:
byronczimmer wrote:

As to the presented concern -- without painting a complete picture, it's hard to say what's wrong or if you really are in an 'impossible' situation.




and setup market however you like. no difference.


Ok great. So right off the bat, you know you can't beat the 5 level damage on the gorgon. So the wizard can play all their cards in an attempt to help out the rogue. That hyena and those tokens are dead in two turns, and only because you were unlucky to not draw any red damage.

Now that means the wizard has already taken some hits, but that's ok because you both made some money off of the hyena plus your starting money. Chances are by turn three you're taking out the level 5 damage and can then the wizard is just discarding any cards that are not either black damage or two damage icons on one card that you bought in the market to take out the colorless levels.

IT IS NOT IMPOSSIBLE. You sometimes may rely on a lucky market draw, or a dragonfire card (which we didn't even talk about) popping up at an opportune time, but it's not impossible. If that's your mentality this game isn't going to be for you.
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Rob Davis
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viszla wrote:
byronczimmer wrote:

As to the presented concern -- without painting a complete picture, it's hard to say what's wrong or if you really are in an 'impossible' situation.




and setup market however you like. no difference.


Turn 1
- Red plays all 3 of his cards: destroys all 3 tokens in front of himself. Takes 2 dmg. Draws 2 cards, doesn't buy anything.
- Blue plays both Cantrips to destroy his token and do the first lvl of dmg against the Hyena. Draws 2 cards, buys Misty Step (4) and Javelin (2).

Turn 2
Red plays Stealth against Hyena, Wizard assists w/Javelin: Hyena is dead. Red draws 2 cards, then buys Twist the Knife (4) now that's he's played a red card. Buys any 2 cost card w/an Assist that is available. (Bless, Expertise, Javelin).
- Blue's turn. Wiz plays Misty Step, which allows him to draw the last 3 cards in his deck. After discarding he keeps and plays 2 Glory and a Stealth. Red player plays Twist the Knife, the Assist card he bought last turn, and his Bless (he has drawn all but 1 card from his deck, so odds are he has it.)

That gives you 1 Level Damage, 2 black, 1 red, 1 blue, 1 gray, and 2 of whatever the Red player's other Assists generated. Gorgon is dead.

I can't quite read what it says on the Wizard's background feature, but if he can trigger it now, he heals 1 HP. Player then draws 2 cards and has 6 gold to spend on cards (hopefully a Flaming Oil to use against Scene 2's tokens).

Scene ends and the Wizard heals back to full HP while the Rogue is only down 1. Rogue has 5 gold to buy a card with, plus 1 left in his hand from the last turn.



Obviously that all depends on how the Market goes, but it is possible and I tried not to use some of the previously suggested cards that could have made things even easier. And of course the Dragonfire deck is always there to screw things up.

But even so, this is definitely not impossible.
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David Carroll
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Red can only play 1 card per turn, and not assist.

It doesn't seem too hard to take the first level of Gorgon down:

1: Red plays one card (to kill a token), and then buys a Flaming Oil. Takes 4 damage, draws a Bless(!) and something else.

2: Blue uses the Red's Bless and his own card to damage the Hyena 2 levels. Takes 3 damage. Buys another Flaming Oil. What luck!

3: With the Flaming Oil and 3 cards, Red takes out the Gorgon level 1, and the token. Takes 4 damage

4: Blue uses Flaming Oil to kill all encounters on Red. Takes 2 damage

And now they can buy some extra stuff. Don't think they can kill the Gorgon without it getting another hit in, but if Blue heals first, they both finish the scene with 1 hp each! Good thing it only gets easier.
 
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Joshua Gottesman
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SteoanK wrote:
Only this person it's in front of has the terror applied. The other player can play cards against it normally.


Has this been ruled definitively anywhere. We ran into this last night and decided Terror applied to everyone because it's really not addressed in the rules. Obviously I like the way you play it more.
 
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Joshuaaaaaa wrote:
SteoanK wrote:
Only this person it's in front of has the terror applied. The other player can play cards against it normally.


Has this been ruled definitively anywhere. We ran into this last night and decided Terror applied to everyone because it's really not addressed in the rules. Obviously I like the way you play it more.


Effects that affect all players are noted as such, like the Displacer Beast.

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Rob Davis
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Ashamel wrote:
Red can only play 1 card per turn, and not assist.

That is not correct at all. First of all, Encounters only effect the player facing them, unless stated otherwise like on Displacer Beast (all characters) or Centaur (a specific class). Secondly, the Gorgon's Terror is a tripwire effect, notated by the line under "Terror", so it isn't triggered until one of the damage levels below the damage track's tripwire has been taken out.
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Steve Beeman
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Seems like sufficient evidence in this thread that it's possible to defeat this setup AND likely you were doing something wrong OP.
 
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The Gorgon is tough, but clearly there is a misunderstanding about how Terror is working as a Tripwire trait. Terror isn’t in play until you’ve done a level of damage below the Tripwire line. Avoid that until the Wizard can do meaningful damage below the Tripwire. That way the other player can finish it off with a few damage in a single Turn. The Terror effect never impacts the Wizard (other than preventing an Assist on that final Turn).

There are some good ideas from folks in this thread, but basically you need to:

1) Eliminate Tokens
2) Eliminate Hyena
3) Eliminate 5 Colorless to Gorgon
4) Once that is all done, the Wizard should lead the damage against the post Tripwire levels of the Gorgon playing all they can to weaken it and leaving it for the second player.

This Wizard might take damage for two Rounds, losing 4 Health, but you’ll also have a healthy influx of Gold going into Scene 2.
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David Carroll
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davro33 wrote:
Secondly, the Gorgon's Terror is a tripwire effect, notated by the line under "Terror", so it isn't triggered until one of the damage levels below the damage track's tripwire has been taken out.


Ah yeah, me bad. This is what comes of only reading the card off the piccie.
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Last week I drew this card in the first scene for wastes. It ended up in a loss in 3rd scene and with my characters at 10 xp.

At first I though 'my god' but actually these challenging card draw me into reading the rules and double checking my options a few turns in advance ... and that is what I enjoy about this game as a puzzle.

For me there are a lot of subtleties hidden in the rules that only become obvious once I've played these more difficult cards, keep track of BGG and rereading the rules, eventually it made the game a lot easier and the starting dungean seems to be a breeze now.

Thus far the problem with 3 'test'plays of wastes is that I draw colored cards that fit each character color hence 3 tokens in front of each of the characters. Last game 1 character was facing 9 damage and while already at 2 hp.
 
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Ashamel wrote:
...they both finish the scene with 1 hp each! Good thing it only gets easier.


^^^this^^^

I rest my case.
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viszla wrote:
Ashamel wrote:
...they both finish the scene with 1 hp each! Good thing it only gets easier.


^^^this^^^

I rest my case.


Not really, because Ashmael fundamentally misread the card, thinking terror was in effect at all times, when it's not (it's a tripwire ability)

Read davros's proposed approach, which details a viable path that makes it through the first scene having taken almost no damage, and with lots of $$$ for the 2nd scene. Certainly it's an idealized take, but the reality is that even with a less than perfect market, you should be able to make it to scene 2 without having suffered too much pain, and with a metric boatload of cash to buy really strong stuff to keep you going.

I can only assume you're making some core mistakes in play (like how Ash misread the terror timing). Like, up above, you said "but there is no time to draw any useful buy from the market." I'm not sure, but the way you worded this makes me think you might be mistakenly buying cards from the market and putting them directly in your discard pile, rather than in your hand, which would make the game nearly impossible to win.

Also, when you wrote "And after that you need to clear 5 new levels with only one card every turn.", this implies that you don't realize that players can attack the monsters in front of each other. So yes, once the terror kicks in (and it only affects you, and not from the beginning), you only get to play 1 card on your turn, but your partner can still play all their cards on their turn and can still assist on your turn.

Really, the only supertough thing about this opening draw is that unfortunately you waste the "deal 1 level of damage upon defeat" effect of the Gorgon, since you should take out the hyena first, but that's only a minor stumbling block.

Gorgon isn't nice, but he's really not that tough, and considering how much $$$ you get for beating him, once he's down you're really going to be set for the 2nd scene
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davro33 wrote:
viszla wrote:
byronczimmer wrote:

As to the presented concern -- without painting a complete picture, it's hard to say what's wrong or if you really are in an 'impossible' situation.




and setup market however you like. no difference.


Turn 1
- Red plays all 3 of his cards: destroys all 3 tokens in front of himself. Takes 2 dmg. Draws 2 cards, doesn't buy anything.
- Blue plays both Cantrips to destroy his token and do the first lvl of dmg against the Hyena. Draws 2 cards, buys Misty Step (4) and Javelin (2).

Turn 2
Red plays Stealth against Hyena, Wizard assists w/Javelin: Hyena is dead. Red draws 2 cards, then buys Twist the Knife (4) now that's he's played a red card. Buys any 2 cost card w/an Assist that is available. (Bless, Expertise, Javelin).
- Blue's turn. Wiz plays Misty Step, which allows him to draw the last 3 cards in his deck. After discarding he keeps and plays 2 Glory and a Stealth. Red player plays Twist the Knife, the Assist card he bought last turn, and his Bless (he has drawn all but 1 card from his deck, so odds are he has it.)

That gives you 1 Level Damage, 2 black, 1 red, 1 blue, 1 gray, and 2 of whatever the Red player's other Assists generated. Gorgon is dead.

I can't quite read what it says on the Wizard's background feature, but if he can trigger it now, he heals 1 HP. Player then draws 2 cards and has 6 gold to spend on cards (hopefully a Flaming Oil to use against Scene 2's tokens).

Scene ends and the Wizard heals back to full HP while the Rogue is only down 1. Rogue has 5 gold to buy a card with, plus 1 left in his hand from the last turn.



Obviously that all depends on how the Market goes, but it is possible and I tried not to use some of the previously suggested cards that could have made things even easier. And of course the Dragonfire deck is always there to screw things up.

But even so, this is definitely not impossible.


Twist the Knife costs $5.
Does that change your answer significantly?
 
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