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Subject: Drawing two Epidemic cards back to back rss

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Daniel Dukai
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So this just happened to us last night in our third game. It was absolutely devastating and cost us the game.

I remember vaguely, but I believe that the first outbreak happened in Madrid, and then in New York and London. But this is not as important as my next point.

Drawing an Epidemic card on an empty discard pile is going to make your life a living hell, since the card that you just infected is going to be put on top and going to get an outbreak, possibly causing chain reactions, which just happened to us and we lost the game because of the outbreaks, and there wasn't much we could do to prevent this.

Do you just suck it up in games like this and start over? Btw, we used 5 Epidemic cards.
 
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Andrew Kapish
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danieldukai wrote:
Do you just suck it up in games like this and start over?
Heck no! We suck it up, trigger alpha mode, and proceed to whoop on the game.
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Daniel Dukai
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But there is no time for you to react to any of this.
 
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Mark Johns
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In order to get two epidemics back to back, one of them must be the bottom card of that “section” of the draw pile. This means that the players would have an idea of roughly when the epidemic is going to hit.

If the players know an epidemic is imminent, and the board state is such that there are several cities with 3 cubes (two cubes would not cause a chain reaction outbreak) then I’d argue that you did have time to react (but this was before the cards were even drawn).

By ignoring the board state for too long, you had lost before you drew the card.

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Daniel Dukai
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50 Caliber Bob wrote:
In order to get two epidemics back to back, one of them must be the bottom card of that “section” of the draw pile. This means that the players would have an idea of roughly when the epidemic is going to hit.

If the players know an epidemic is imminent, and the board state is such that there are several cities with 3 cubes (two cubes would not cause a chain reaction outbreak) then I’d argue that you did have time to react (but this was before the cards were even drawn).

By ignoring the board state for too long, you had lost before you drew the card.



We prepared the player deck as per the rules, but there is still a chance that Epidemic cards get stuck together.

How would I know if I'm going to draw an Epidemic?

This happened way too early in the game, and from a relatively safe board state.
 
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Andrew Kapish
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danieldukai wrote:
How would I know if I'm going to draw an Epidemic?
In a 5 Epidemic game, an epidemic card will be shuffled somewhere into every 9–10 cards or so.

As is such, the possibility of drawing an epidemic retriggerers every 4–5 turns or so.

If you draw an epidemic early in the 10 card cycle, you know you likely have several turns before drawing another.

If you’re deep into the 10 card cycle and haven’t come across an epidemic yet, you know the odds of drawing an epidemic are increased.
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M.C.Crispy
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danieldukai wrote:
How would I know if I'm going to draw an Epidemic?
You would know that you're going to draw the first one by simple card counting. But there's no way to predict the second one that you drew.
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Nick Smith
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The point being made is that the setup rules ensure that each epidemic is segregated into its own roughly equal pile of cards. That means, in order for you to get two epidemics in a row, the first must've been the very last card in its pile and the second must've been the very first card in its pile.

In general, if an epidemic card doesn't show up until the very end of the pile, you should be able to tell that an epidemic is coming soon, simply because you know that one must show up at certain regular intervals (in your case, you can see that you've gone through roughly a fifth of the deck, so you know an epidemic must be coming soon).

If you can't tell that sort of thing in advance, then either you haven't yet developed that skill and still need to work on it or your deck is unpredictable because it hasn't been constructed properly.

Having said that, it is possible to occassionally get super, super unlucky and lose from a series of cubes that you simply couldn't have prevented other than by pure dumb luck. In general, though, that's a very rare case. Most of the time when you get two epidemics in a row, it'll be a rough ride, but you'll survive and you'll also have the guarantee that it will probably be a while before you see the next epidemic. So you do have a chance to claw your way back.
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Daniel Dukai
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grendelsbayne wrote:
The point being made is that the setup rules ensure that each epidemic is segregated into its own roughly equal pile of cards. That means, in order for you to get two epidemics in a row, the first must've been the very last card in its pile and the second must've been the very first card in its pile.

In general, if an epidemic card doesn't show up until the very end of the pile, you should be able to tell that an epidemic is coming soon, simply because you know that one must show up at certain regular intervals (in your case, you can see that you've gone through roughly a fifth of the deck, so you know an epidemic must be coming soon).

If you can't tell that sort of thing in advance, then either you haven't yet developed that skill and still need to work on it or your deck is unpredictable because it hasn't been constructed properly.

Having said that, it is possible to occassionally get super, super unlucky and lose from a series of cubes that you simply couldn't have prevented other than by pure dumb luck. In general, though, that's a very rare case. Most of the time when you get two epidemics in a row, it'll be a rough ride, but you'll survive and you'll also have the guarantee that it will probably be a while before you see the next epidemic. So you do have a chance to claw your way back.


Well, I know very well that I can possibly predict an Epidemic, but I won't know for sure when I'm going to draw one. I get your point.

Granted, this is a very rare case and it doesn't happen often. But we'll be more careful next time.
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M.C.Crispy
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danieldukai wrote:
Well, I know very well that I can possibly predict an Epidemic, but I won't know for sure when I'm going to draw one.
You can know for absolute sure when the first is due, just not the second. You know how many cards are in each Epidemic block and you know how many cards get drawn per turn. That's all that's necessary to know that the first one must be about to come up in the next draw (in your example situation)
 
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Marcel Stipetic
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I find that getting 2 Epidemic cards in a row is more often useful than detrimental. You get rid of 2 Epidemics in one turn; and if you've taken care of the game board then only the 1 Epidemic location is guaranteed to outbreak; and since the first Epidemic card was the last of its grouping, it means there are quite a few city cards that have been shuffled back in the infection deck, lessening the chances of drawing the Epidemic city caused by the first Epidemic. So, it will be clear sailing (flying!) for the next 10 cards, and likely more (if you immediately take care of the first city to outbreak because it is still in the infection deck's top cards).

Of course, it also depends on whether the two Epidemic cities are next to each other. That can have disastrous consequences if other cities connected to these cities have cubes...especially if they are lurking at the top of the infection deck.

This is what makes this game so awesome.

BTW, we always admit defeat when defeated; and usually set the game up again and get revenge!

PPS: This is also a case where the First Responder becomes super awesome!
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Daniel Dukai
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We could also always hang on to a Resilient Population card, and remove the single remaining infected city card from the Infection deck when we put it there via an Epidemic card.

I don't always count cards in the player deck, I usually do it towards the end of the game, or mid game to plan out the remaining few turns. I like playing the game more, rather than metagaming all the time. But, information is key in this game...

Also... the Contingency Planner is just... bad. I tried to use his ability as often as I could, but my wife and I wished he was another character instead. = /
 
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Bob S.
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mccrispy wrote:
danieldukai wrote:
Well, I know very well that I can possibly predict an Epidemic, but I won't know for sure when I'm going to draw one.
You can know for absolute sure when the first is due, just not the second. You know how many cards are in each Epidemic block and you know how many cards get drawn per turn. That's all that's necessary to know that the first one must be about to come up in the next draw (in your example situation)

You can know but don’t necessarily unless you carefully count how many cards are in each “block,” which we don’t do. The rules call for splitting the deck roughly into equal parts, placing the “smaller” block on the newly assembled deck. Since we (for example w/ 4 Epidemic cards when teaching new folks) split the deck roughly in half (without counting cards) and then split each half roughly in half again, we wouldn’t “know” the exact card count and so couldn’t accurately tell when that first Epidemic will fall.

(Actually, “knowing” that would detract from the enjoyment of the game for me, I think.)
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Grarrrg Grarrrgowski
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danieldukai wrote:
Drawing an Epidemic card on an empty discard pile is going to make your life a living hell, since the card that you just infected is going to be put on top and going to get an outbreak...

Do you just suck it up in games like this and start over? Btw, we used 5 Epidemic cards.


It's also possible to lose on turn 1.

Random game is random.
You always have a chance to win until you lose.
Just keep playing.
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Dave S
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danieldukai wrote:
So this just happened to us last night in our third game. It was absolutely devastating and cost us the game.

I remember vaguely, but I believe that the first outbreak happened in Madrid, and then in New York and London. But this is not as important as my next point.

Drawing an Epidemic card on an empty discard pile is going to make your life a living hell, since the card that you just infected is going to be put on top and going to get an outbreak, possibly causing chain reactions, which just happened to us and we lost the game because of the outbreaks, and there wasn't much we could do to prevent this.

Do you just suck it up in games like this and start over? Btw, we used 5 Epidemic cards.
I believe the way this gets resolved is that you pull two cards from the bottom of the deck, move the infection rate marker twice, shuffle the infection discard pile, and then infect however many cities there are. Happened to me once on the app and in one of The Dice Tower's games of Legacy Season 2. I'm almost positive that this is how both instances resolved it.
 
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Justin V

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MaceQuantex wrote:
danieldukai wrote:
So this just happened to us last night in our third game. It was absolutely devastating and cost us the game.

I remember vaguely, but I believe that the first outbreak happened in Madrid, and then in New York and London. But this is not as important as my next point.

Drawing an Epidemic card on an empty discard pile is going to make your life a living hell, since the card that you just infected is going to be put on top and going to get an outbreak, possibly causing chain reactions, which just happened to us and we lost the game because of the outbreaks, and there wasn't much we could do to prevent this.

Do you just suck it up in games like this and start over? Btw, we used 5 Epidemic cards.
I believe the way this gets resolved is that you pull two cards from the bottom of the deck, move the infection rate marker twice, shuffle the infection discard pile, and then infect however many cities there are. Happened to me once on the app and in one of The Dice Tower's games of Legacy Season 2. I'm almost positive that this is how both instances resolved it.


That isn't correct, if you draw two Epidemic cards you process both cards separately, then move on to the infect step, so the first bottom deck card will get shuffled with rest of the discard pile but the card drawn for the Infect step of the second Epidemic will be the only card in the discard and will be on top so this is a guaranteed outbreak unless you can play One Quiet Night or Resilient Population or some other event that may help.
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Grarrrg Grarrrgowski
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lithy wrote:
MaceQuantex wrote:
I believe the way this gets resolved is that you pull two cards from the bottom of the deck, move the infection rate marker twice, shuffle the infection discard pile, and then infect however many cities there are. Happened to me once on the app and in one of The Dice Tower's games of Legacy Season 2. I'm almost positive that this is how both instances resolved it.


That isn't correct, if you draw two Epidemic cards you process both cards separately, then move on to the infect step, so the first bottom deck card will get shuffled with rest of the discard pile but the card drawn for the Infect step of the second Epidemic will be the only card in the discard and will be on top so this is a guaranteed outbreak unless you can play One Quiet Night or Resilient Population or some other event that may help.


Lithy is correct.
Rules page 6:
"It is rare but possible to draw 2 Epidemic cards at once. In this case, do all three steps above once and then again...
In this case in the second epidemic’s Infection card will be the
only card to “reshuffle”, ..."

The App is not guaranteed to be rules exact, watching someone else play the game doesn't mean they are aware of all rules, and it's possible Legacy made a few rules tweaks (I have not read the Legacy rules to be certain).
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Ken
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'When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning' - Dr. Reiner Knizia
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Borz wrote:
You can know but don’t necessarily unless you carefully count how many cards are in each “block,” which we don’t do. The rules call for splitting the deck roughly into equal parts, placing the “smaller” block on the newly assembled deck. Since we (for example w/ 4 Epidemic cards when teaching new folks) split the deck roughly in half (without counting cards) and then split each half roughly in half again, we wouldn’t “know” the exact card count and so couldn’t accurately tell when that first Epidemic will fall.

(Actually, “knowing” that would detract from the enjoyment of the game for me, I think.)


We don't count either. Of course if it's been a while we do get nervous and starting thinking it will happen any time. But counting seems a little gamey for our group.
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M.C.Crispy
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So nobody keeps track of which Cities have been drawn from the Infection Deck and monitors the risk of Outbreaks or when you've gone *deeper* than the last Concentration step; nobody keeps track of the Player cards that have been discarded - both for numbers of a colour and to know which Cities could be available for Transport or Building; you're all just flipping cards and reacting, with no attempt to plan using the information that is both (1) available and (2) usable within RAW? Wow! I prefer to adjust my win rate by increasing the game's difficulty settings that are are part of RAW, rather than use self-imposed handicaps that are not.

(I'll bet a significant proportion of you do all the same things as me, but apply a degree "fog" to the knowledge that depends on your experience with the game, your memory and your intuition. I merely explicitly remove that fog to eliminate handicaps of poor memory and low intuition
 
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