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Subject: How many Convoy Points per turn? rss

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Randy Flowers
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I am in my first full CG game, just learning in the first few turns still, and curious as to how many CPs do you build as each country (CW, USA, JP) per turn?

With all the new convoys you will need (Murmansk, going around the horn, etc) and the losses as the Battle of the Atlantic heats up, you will certainly need a bunch of new CPs, but how many are typically needed to keep up?

Thanks
Randy
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Wendell
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It depends so much on how the game is going that it's hard to give a number. Zero is definitely the wrong answer for the CW - but so much depends on whether Germany is building lots of subs/NAV, what's happening in the Med, whether Germany DOW'd Norway (nice CP boost to CW), etc. US IMO should build quite a few while neutral and otherwise have limits on what they can build anyway; CPs don't become obsolete.
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Bruce Jurin
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As Wendell said, it is hard to determine how many losses you will take.

But the first step is to decide how many you need, and then how many are ideal. With a little time and concentration, calculate your 'best' convoy route for the amounts you need. Start with what you need for production.

If you play without SiF, you have to deal with CP's in increments. so see how to get your resources to your factories with this constraint. IF you play with Sif, you can ship from everywhere.

So for example, the CW will usually want to ship 15 resources to the UK.If you play with oil, probably another 4 from South America. You ship 5 from Canada, or 6 if you ship an Australian resource to Canada. Say you ship 6 - then you need 18 CP's for this. You need 15 to ship three from South Africa/Rhodesia. If you can ship the Belgian Congo resource, you usually need 4. And so on.

I can show you a schematic, but it is good to work this out yourself - not only do you calculate CP's needed, you also should figure out the best convoy routes.

I usually don't ship through the Bay of Biscay once France falls, so you may want to make calculations including these kinds of variables.

Once you calculate what you need for production, figure out what you want for loans. You will want some for the Iranian route and for Arctic convoys often - so if you are giving 5 Lend lease form the CW to the USSR, you often will need 15 CP's for this if you use Arctic convoys.

Ok, now you have calculated the minimum for the production step. If you play with limited overseas supply, you will need a bunch of extra convoys, Once again, figure out first the minimum you need under ideal conditions.

So you have calculated the number of convoys you would want if you didn't face any opposition. Here comes the hard part. You usually want 10% - 20% reserves - you will never get to 20%, but that is the ideal amount. You want reserves to be able to retreat from a seabox and then send others out. Given limited range you need excess reserves far away. The reserves to cover LOS are especially important. If you play with tankers from convoy Points in Flames, you need a few more since the enemy can target one type for losses when they choose them, or you can take disproportional losses from random luck.

Finally, you have to replace losses.

On the other hand, you should calculate how many CP's you will get from Allies. The CW gets considerable CP reinforcements from minors, particularly the Netherlands, Denmark, and if Germany attacks then, Norway. If they attack Greece you will get more, but remember some of these will be sunk of the surprise impulse often.

As an example, by late 1942 in my last playtest game the US and CW needed 82 convoys and 31 tankers for production and loans including lend lease; I needed an additional 18for limited overseas supply. So I had 131 in total as needs. I had about 150 on the board. Losses were light in this game, but in my previous game losses in the convoy war were heavy. However, one of the reasons losses were low is that I went berserk building ASW. My opponent said he won the convoy war even though I had few convoy losses, but I spent so much on protection it had a similar impact.

Including the freebies I got from the minors, this required about 25 to be built. So for the particulars of my game, I needed to build about this 25 over the first few years + losses. As Wendell said, the loss amount (or the anticipation of losses)will be the greatest factor. In my last game I had ASW or CP's at about 3-5 turn

Note this can be a decisive front – in the actual war, the US Liberty ships were 30 million tons! That is about 180 BP's (and that doesn't include CW production)! If you can get away with building far fewer, that extra production can be enormous.

I haven't discussed Japan much. But the principles are the same. Japan's needs are simpler to calculate. However, once the shooting war starts with the US, they can take considerable losses. If you play with LOS have lots of spares, your convoys can get hit hard once the US gets nearby bases. (fortunately for Japan, unlike WiFFE, in WiFCE the US fleet can't effectively hang out in Calcutta).

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Brian Jarvinen
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For Japan, to start, just build one every time that turn's build list comes up with a spare build point, rather than trying to re-configure it to not have a single left over. You will be glad you did; especially if your or your Russian opponent open up some war in the Middle East. Later on, start building a dedicated amount each turn, such as 2.

For the USA, I like to build a solid 15 or so on the first two turns. They give a little flexibility on shipping the Philippines resource to China, Japan, or home to the USA, for one, and maybe to really push Japan's buttons with a few Build Points delivered to China perhaps. They also allow a duplicative web of supply links to the entire eastern half of the Pacific, positioned before war with Japan - a good thing to have when playing with Limited Overseas Supply. And the final up-side to that build is being ready to play the entry option "Re-Flag Merchant Ships" to put your Merchant Marine to work for a hard-pressed Ally in the UK or Russia.

For the CW I would start building them immediately if your German opponent is a smart one who attacks Belgium and then France while leaving The Netherlands neutral.
 
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Adam Jurin
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brianjay wrote:


For the CW I would start building them immediately if your German opponent is a smart one who attacks Belgium and then France while leaving The Netherlands neutral.


I'm curious, how do you avoid the headache of the Dyle defense if you do this? Do you generally play with no ZoC on surprise impulses?
 
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Randy Flowers
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You guys are great. I have been down deep in learning this game for about 2 months now and still feel like an utter newbie.

So, what is an average per turn CP production (realizing that every game is very different)?

I am not hearing that yall build that many. How do you replace the losses that are surely coming in the Atlantic (or later for Japan) without building quite a few more than 1-2 per turn?

And, you have to account for longer convoys avoiding danger and the need for lend lease convoys, so it sure seems like you would need to build quite a few CPs.

Randy
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Wendell
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rainman2016 wrote:
You guys are great. I have been down deep in learning this game for about 2 months now and still feel like an utter newbie.

So, what is an average per turn CP production (realizing that every game is very different)?

I am not hearing that yall build that many. How do you replace the losses that are surely coming in the Atlantic (or later for Japan) without building quite a few more than 1-2 per turn?

And, you have to account for longer convoys avoiding danger and the need for lend lease convoys, so it sure seems like you would need to build quite a few CPs.

Randy


As the CW player I feel like it is good naval hygiene to build at least 1 CP per turn in the early war period (i.e. before US is in). Exact levels will vary depending on how hard Germany and Italy are prosecuting the Battle of the Atlantic. Building 2-3 a turn is not unusual for CW, again with the usual caveats about what the game situation is. What I try to do as the CW is hopefully have a reserve of CPs sitting in two or three places (Liverpool, Gib, maybe S Africa, maybe Canada) in a big enough clump that if a key sea area gets completely swept of Allied CPs that I can fix the line, either by replacing losses in the area the Axis attacked or by putting an alternate CP line that evades whatever nasty concentration of u-boats and NAVs that are making life difficult.
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Randy Flowers
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wifwendell wrote:
rainman2016 wrote:
You guys are great. I have been down deep in learning this game for about 2 months now and still feel like an utter newbie.

So, what is an average per turn CP production (realizing that every game is very different)?

I am not hearing that yall build that many. How do you replace the losses that are surely coming in the Atlantic (or later for Japan) without building quite a few more than 1-2 per turn?

And, you have to account for longer convoys avoiding danger and the need for lend lease convoys, so it sure seems like you would need to build quite a few CPs.

Randy


As the CW player I feel like it is good naval hygiene to build at least 1 CP per turn in the early war period (i.e. before US is in). Exact levels will vary depending on how hard Germany and Italy are prosecuting the Battle of the Atlantic. Building 2-3 a turn is not unusual for CW, again with the usual caveats about what the game situation is. What I try to do as the CW is hopefully have a reserve of CPs sitting in two or three places (Liverpool, Gib, maybe S Africa, maybe Canada) in a big enough clump that if a key sea area gets completely swept of Allied CPs that I can fix the line, either by replacing losses in the area the Axis attacked or by putting an alternate CP line that evades whatever nasty concentration of u-boats and NAVs that are making life difficult.


How many do the US typically (average) build per turn? They need to give some to the CW with the USE option, and also get resources to China, etc.

Also, getting ready for the USA sub onslaught, how many do the Japanese build early on average, and also once the war starts and late war, when they are getting ravaged?

Randy
 
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Wendell
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rainman2015 wrote:
wifwendell wrote:
rainman2016 wrote:
You guys are great. I have been down deep in learning this game for about 2 months now and still feel like an utter newbie.

So, what is an average per turn CP production (realizing that every game is very different)?

I am not hearing that yall build that many. How do you replace the losses that are surely coming in the Atlantic (or later for Japan) without building quite a few more than 1-2 per turn?

And, you have to account for longer convoys avoiding danger and the need for lend lease convoys, so it sure seems like you would need to build quite a few CPs.

Randy


As the CW player I feel like it is good naval hygiene to build at least 1 CP per turn in the early war period (i.e. before US is in). Exact levels will vary depending on how hard Germany and Italy are prosecuting the Battle of the Atlantic. Building 2-3 a turn is not unusual for CW, again with the usual caveats about what the game situation is. What I try to do as the CW is hopefully have a reserve of CPs sitting in two or three places (Liverpool, Gib, maybe S Africa, maybe Canada) in a big enough clump that if a key sea area gets completely swept of Allied CPs that I can fix the line, either by replacing losses in the area the Axis attacked or by putting an alternate CP line that evades whatever nasty concentration of u-boats and NAVs that are making life difficult.


How many do the US typically (average) build per turn? They need to give some to the CW with the USE option, and also get resources to China, etc.

Also, getting ready for the USA sub onslaught, how many do the Japanese build early on average, and also once the war starts and late war, when they are getting ravaged?

Randy


Again "it depends" is the answer. I'm sorry I don't have firm numbers; so much depends on what is happening in the game. The US has some built-in surplus of CPs; they won't need that long chain going to Japan once at war. One or two a turn early on is useful but then it's a question of assessing what the total lines will require, how many over that you have, what's being done for lend-lease to Russia, and being sure to keep a reserve. And what the enemy are doing.

I'll tell you, I tend to end up with extra CPs. Waste? Maybe. On the other hand, unless there is bad luck with end-of-turn rolls, I'd usually have enough CP to cover losses and avoid a big hit to my production.

Japan has fewer CP needs just because there are fewer seazones needed to ship resources through to keep the economy going (and fewer seazones to protect; Japan in WIF is much more effective at protecting its shipping than the IJN was in real-life, when escorting shipping was seen as beneath them). Count the resources you want to ship; count what you've got. Make sure there is an ample reserve. And increase the numbers if the US/CW are committing to an anti-Japan shipping strategy.

Oh and if playing limited overseas supplies, you'll need more CPs since you'll stick a few in areas you wouldn't otherwise bother with, just for supply.
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Bruce Jurin
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Now now Randy, we gave you the formula, you have to plug in the details for your game.

Go over my post above:

Basic formula:

Build What you need - what you have + replacement of losses

What you have = what you have now + what you will get from minors.

Obviously the US and CW can combine once the US is in the war, France and the CW can largely combine also.

What you need = what you need for production (assuming realistic convoy lines) + what you need to transport oil back (if you play with oil) + what you need to provide supply (especially if playing with Limited Overseas Supply)+ what you need for loans and or lend lease + reserves

Reserves= 10% to 20% of what you need

Plug in each line - this gives total needs.

Projecting losses is very hard (CW) as it depends on enemy submarine commitment, whether you ship in dangerous zones like the Bay of Biscay, whether Germany and Italy have committed air and surface units, whether you have built a lot of ASW or NAV's, etc.

Clearly if you lose Gibraltar the equation entries shift, there is no way to have a general answer, each one of the inputs change game to game.


Once you determine total needs - what you have, divide by the number of turns you need to get there; and then for each turn, add losses (or projected losses). You don't need this each turn but that is the desired amount on average.

Also, 'what you want' needs to be mixed with practicality. If the Germans have invaded England, you have higher priorities.

Japan has the same equation, but a much simpler production calculation. Losses however can get very high in 1943 and on.
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Stanley Leghorn
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We treat the options as horse trading, if USSR wants the Siberians, Axis gets no ZOC on the surprise impulse. Also, an Offensive with Von Bock against Belgium in S/O 39 can activate most of the reserve for use against France on Imp 5.
 
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Stanley Leghorn
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Note that the new CE version tones down both the SUB force and the ASW force, with ASW not appearing until 1942+. OTOH, if you are playing with Surface Raiders, you need to escort convoys that you never had to before as they can base in neutral ports. Another reason for leaving Netherlands alone as that gives you bases in the Pacific for the raiders.
 
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Wendell
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Avaheildotter wrote:
We treat the options as horse trading, if USSR wants the Siberians, Axis gets no ZOC on the surprise impulse. Also, an Offensive with Von Bock against Belgium in S/O 39 can activate most of the reserve for use against France on Imp 5.


I really prefer the opposite - pick options THEN bid for or pick sides.
 
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