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Subject: So "Trading in The Mediterranean" finally sees the light of day! rss

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M.C.Crispy
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I cannot wait!
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Neither can we!
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Is it truly a collaboration Geoff, or did you take it from where it was after Ryan (sadly, IMO) dropped off the radar and "Englestein it" (not a derogatory term)? How much Sturm DNA courses through its veins? Is it closer to The Dragon & Flagon than to Caylus?
 
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And when can we expect a special Ludology episode with Ryan to catch us up with what's changed?
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mjdart wrote:
And when can we expect a special Ludology episode with Ryan to catch us up with what's changed?
I nearly wrote this myself, I'm glad you did.
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mccrispy wrote:
Is it truly a collaboration Geoff, or did you take it from where it was after Ryan (sadly, IMO) dropped off the radar and "Englestein it" (not a derogatory term)? How much Sturm DNA courses through its veins? Is it closer to The Dragon & Flagon than to Caylus?


I played a (pretty-close-to-final-I-think) version of this with Ryan at NBW in 2017. I can't speak to the level of collaboration (who did what), but I can say that the game is very fun. Maybe a cross between Flagon and Caylus?! It's really a party Civ game, which I wouldn't have thought possible, if I hadn't played it. My one play of it was very enjoyable. The negotiation aspect really shined through with the great group that I got to play with. I've been looking forward to an official release. Congratulations, Ryan and Geoff. Well done.
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trawlerman wrote:
mccrispy wrote:
Is it truly a collaboration Geoff, or did you take it from where it was after Ryan (sadly, IMO) dropped off the radar and "Englestein it" (not a derogatory term)? How much Sturm DNA courses through its veins? Is it closer to The Dragon & Flagon than to Caylus?


I played a (pretty-close-to-final-I-think) version of this with Ryan at NBW in 2017. I can't speak to the level of collaboration (who did what), but I can say that the game is very fun. Maybe a cross between Flagon and Caylus?! It's really a party Civ game, which I wouldn't have thought possible, if I hadn't played it. My one play of it was very enjoyable. The negotiation aspect really shined through with the great group that I got to play with. I've been looking forward to an official release. Congratulations, Ryan and Geoff. Well done.
Ah, crap! I'd forgotten the negotiation element: drops it straight down to a "wait and see" from insta-buy
 
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mccrispy wrote:
trawlerman wrote:
mccrispy wrote:
Is it truly a collaboration Geoff, or did you take it from where it was after Ryan (sadly, IMO) dropped off the radar and "Englestein it" (not a derogatory term)? How much Sturm DNA courses through its veins? Is it closer to The Dragon & Flagon than to Caylus?


I played a (pretty-close-to-final-I-think) version of this with Ryan at NBW in 2017. I can't speak to the level of collaboration (who did what), but I can say that the game is very fun. Maybe a cross between Flagon and Caylus?! It's really a party Civ game, which I wouldn't have thought possible, if I hadn't played it. My one play of it was very enjoyable. The negotiation aspect really shined through with the great group that I got to play with. I've been looking forward to an official release. Congratulations, Ryan and Geoff. Well done.
Ah, crap! I'd forgotten the negotiation element: drops it straight down to a "wait and see" from insta-buy

The game is like 99% negotiation, and as I recall, always has been.

This makes me curious what you expected
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sedjtroll wrote:
mccrispy wrote:
trawlerman wrote:
mccrispy wrote:
Is it truly a collaboration Geoff, or did you take it from where it was after Ryan (sadly, IMO) dropped off the radar and "Englestein it" (not a derogatory term)? How much Sturm DNA courses through its veins? Is it closer to The Dragon & Flagon than to Caylus?


I played a (pretty-close-to-final-I-think) version of this with Ryan at NBW in 2017. I can't speak to the level of collaboration (who did what), but I can say that the game is very fun. Maybe a cross between Flagon and Caylus?! It's really a party Civ game, which I wouldn't have thought possible, if I hadn't played it. My one play of it was very enjoyable. The negotiation aspect really shined through with the great group that I got to play with. I've been looking forward to an official release. Congratulations, Ryan and Geoff. Well done.
Ah, crap! I'd forgotten the negotiation element: drops it straight down to a "wait and see" from insta-buy

The game is like 99% negotiation, and as I recall, always has been.

This makes me curious what you expected
"I'd forgotten the negotiation element" does that answer your question? Doesn't change my viewpoint. Perhaps I blanked it out 'cos I was hoping for a fun game.
 
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engelstein wrote:
Neither can we!

A toast to Geoff and Ryan! For those of us following the germ of this game and the context in which it was planted years ago (not just as a game but as a statement), this is truly special news.

Instabuy.
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mccrispy wrote:
sedjtroll wrote:
mccrispy wrote:
trawlerman wrote:
mccrispy wrote:
Is it truly a collaboration Geoff, or did you take it from where it was after Ryan (sadly, IMO) dropped off the radar and "Englestein it" (not a derogatory term)? How much Sturm DNA courses through its veins? Is it closer to The Dragon & Flagon than to Caylus?


I played a (pretty-close-to-final-I-think) version of this with Ryan at NBW in 2017. I can't speak to the level of collaboration (who did what), but I can say that the game is very fun. Maybe a cross between Flagon and Caylus?! It's really a party Civ game, which I wouldn't have thought possible, if I hadn't played it. My one play of it was very enjoyable. The negotiation aspect really shined through with the great group that I got to play with. I've been looking forward to an official release. Congratulations, Ryan and Geoff. Well done.
Ah, crap! I'd forgotten the negotiation element: drops it straight down to a "wait and see" from insta-buy

The game is like 99% negotiation, and as I recall, always has been.

This makes me curious what you expected
"I'd forgotten the negotiation element" does that answer your question? Doesn't change my viewpoint. Perhaps I blanked it out 'cos I was hoping for a fun game.

For what it's worth, I'm not a fan of negotiation in games, but I did enjoy Trade on the Tigris. The negotiation rounds are limited to 5 minutes each, and it's in everyone's best interest to do some trading because you want to turn in sets of goods, and the bigger the set, the better.

The interesting part is that the goods also have things that affect your government, religion, barbarian threat, and culture. While you get more points for turning in bigger sets, often you would rather turn in smaller sets with more of the things that affect your civ the way you want (advancing the direction you want in religion and government for example).
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mccrispy wrote:
Is it truly a collaboration Geoff, or did you take it from where it was after Ryan (sadly, IMO) dropped off the radar and "Englestein it" (not a derogatory term)? How much Sturm DNA courses through its veins? Is it closer to The Dragon & Flagon than to Caylus?


Ryan and I continued to work in Tigris even after he left the show, so it has been collaborative through and through.

If anything, he's done more work on the design than I did. He certainly did most of the heavy lifting of creating the prototype cards and components.

And I'm sure I can entice him to come back on the show!
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engelstein wrote:
mccrispy wrote:
Is it truly a collaboration Geoff, or did you take it from where it was after Ryan (sadly, IMO) dropped off the radar and "Englestein it" (not a derogatory term)? How much Sturm DNA courses through its veins? Is it closer to The Dragon & Flagon than to Caylus?


Ryan and I continued to work in Tigris even after he left the show, so it has been collaborative through and through.

If anything, he's done more work on the design than I did. He certainly did most of the heavy lifting of creating the prototype cards and components.

And I'm sure I can entice him to come back on the show!
That is all music to my ears Geoff! Music to my ears
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sedjtroll wrote:
mccrispy wrote:
sedjtroll wrote:
mccrispy wrote:
trawlerman wrote:
mccrispy wrote:
Is it truly a collaboration Geoff, or did you take it from where it was after Ryan (sadly, IMO) dropped off the radar and "Englestein it" (not a derogatory term)? How much Sturm DNA courses through its veins? Is it closer to The Dragon & Flagon than to Caylus?


I played a (pretty-close-to-final-I-think) version of this with Ryan at NBW in 2017. I can't speak to the level of collaboration (who did what), but I can say that the game is very fun. Maybe a cross between Flagon and Caylus?! It's really a party Civ game, which I wouldn't have thought possible, if I hadn't played it. My one play of it was very enjoyable. The negotiation aspect really shined through with the great group that I got to play with. I've been looking forward to an official release. Congratulations, Ryan and Geoff. Well done.
Ah, crap! I'd forgotten the negotiation element: drops it straight down to a "wait and see" from insta-buy

The game is like 99% negotiation, and as I recall, always has been.

This makes me curious what you expected
"I'd forgotten the negotiation element" does that answer your question? Doesn't change my viewpoint. Perhaps I blanked it out 'cos I was hoping for a fun game.

For what it's worth, I'm not a fan of negotiation in games, but I did enjoy Trade on the Tigris. The negotiation rounds are limited to 5 minutes each, and it's in everyone's best interest to do some trading because you want to turn in sets of goods, and the bigger the set, the better.

The interesting part is that the goods also have things that affect your government, religion, barbarian threat, and culture. While you get more points for turning in bigger sets, often you would rather turn in smaller sets with more of the things that affect your civ the way you want (advancing the direction you want in religion and government for example).
My stumbling block is always going to be that I dislike games where the primary aim is to manipulate the players rather than manipulate the game state. In my experience "playing the player" tends to attract a certain personally type that I dislike interacting with, so regardless of the attraction of the other elements (and they are attractive), negotiation is likely a deal-breaker. Nevertheless, while it's not an insta-buy, I'll actively monitor the consensus and perhaps make a retail purchase somewhere down the line - I don't only buy games that I "know" I'll enjoy for the gameplay (for instance, I own a copy of 504).
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I *love* the system, but I hope the attacks are tuned down a bit from the version I played. They were pretty brutal.

Or at least, I hope there's a variant that's less aggressive or the attack cards are optional.
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Not sure which one you played, but they've been toned down in the last few versions. Items usually just get 'damaged' for a single turn rather than destroyed.
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engelstein wrote:
Not sure which one you played, but they've been toned down in the last few versions. Items usually just get 'damaged' for a single turn rather than destroyed.


That does sound better!
 
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This is all very exciting to see. I am not a long-time listener of Ludology, having only begun listening from episode 1 about a few months ago, and I am just now happening upon the first mention of this in the podcast (Episode 37 for those who are curious). In fact, when the news for this game dropped a couple of days ago, I thought to myself, “very cool! I’ll get to try out a game that was co-designed by my new favorite podcast hosts,” (with the full knowledge that Ryan eventually left.) Imagine my surprise when just now I am hearing on the podcast that the seed for this game was just freshly planted when episode 37 dropped almost 6 years ago (July 22, 2012). Congratulations, Ryan and Geoff! This will be really cool to follow along with your design notes in anticipation for playing the game. This kind of feels like when there’s a movie adaptation of a novel I just quite haven’t finished yet and refuse to see until I finish the book. laugh
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engelstein wrote:
Not sure which one you played, but they've been toned down in the last few versions. Items usually just get 'damaged' for a single turn rather than destroyed.
That's excellent to hear! I must have completely got the wrong end of the stick on this one somehow, direct conflict plus negotiation is a pretty toxic combo as far as I'm concerned. It can only be the fanboi in me that has kept me interested to this point. blushshake
 
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Exciting news! I've been a Ludology listener for some time, and have always wondered what the state of Trading in the Mediterranean was. But why the name change to Tigris? Trading in the Mediterranean was such a great name!
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icalvinist wrote:
Exciting news! I've been a Ludology listener for some time, and have always wondered what the state of Trading in the Mediterranean was. But why the name change to Tigris? Trading in the Mediterranean was such a great name!
my guess is that "99% negotiation" and direct conflict mean that it wouldn't meet the expectations of those who would buy a game called "Trading in the Mediterranean". So rather than have a "misleading" name, they changed it. (Complete guess)
 
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im Confident Ryan will come back on Ludology soon, and we’ll discuss the name change then.
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Do you plan to write some sort of designer diary GMT-Style to bridge the time until the release? This would be cool!
 
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Will it be out for this year's Essen Spiel? :O Please, please, pretty please, say yes!
 
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From the latest info I have from TMG, it should be available at Essen.

Outside shot it will be at Gencon.

Geoff
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