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Subject: Go To Ground rss

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beresford dickens
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Prior to making a Defense Roll, if the defender is not a Tank, and the hex is not Building or Bridge and doesn't contain a Fortification, then place a Shellhole marker.

Remember this is the CC system and you sometimes play a card just to get rid of it.

So I may play this card when in a printed Shellhole hex or one which already contains a Shellhole marker

Is this a form of Terrain Substitution? So if I'm in Woods or Orchard and I take cover the trees disappear? What if I am in terrain that doesn't degrade to a Shellhole? (e.g. Marsh/Stream).
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John McLintock
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beresford wrote:
Prior to making a Defense Roll, if the defender is not a Tank, and the hex is not Building or Bridge and doesn't contain a Fortification, then place a Shellhole marker.

Remember this is the CC system and you sometimes play a card just to get rid of it.

So I may play this card when in a printed Shellhole hex or one which already contains a Shellhole marker

I would say yes, because you're playing an action.
Great War Commander wrote:
A28.1—Actions may be announced by either player at any time via a Fate card played from the hand as long as that Action’s listed condition or prerequisite is met.

This doesn't say anything about the effect of the action, just about meeting its listed condition or prerequisite.
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Is this a form of Terrain Substitution? So if I'm in Woods or Orchard and I take cover the trees disappear? What if I am in terrain that doesn't degrade to a Shellhole? (e.g. Marsh/Stream).

Yep, any terrain in the hex downgrades to Shellhole if it can, so the action would have no effect in Marsh or Stream. And downgrading Woods or Orchard means that sometimes the Go To Ground action won't be the best choice. From reading the rules, I've figured that this action is only really useful in Open Ground or Field.
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Roger Nord
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JMcL63 wrote:
[q="beresford"] From reading the rules, I've figured that this action is only really useful in Open Ground or Field.


That's it.
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beresford dickens
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Zeppelin Raider wrote:
JMcL63 wrote:
[q="beresford"] From reading the rules, I've figured that this action is only really useful in Open Ground or Field.


That's it.


Perhaps it should only be permissible in these cases. Because cycling cards through your hand is a major part of the CC system. I've seen your Attack Roll and I know that it is insignificant and I can improve my hand by playing 'Go to Ground'.
 
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John McLintock
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I disagree, because playing actions for no effect is established in the basic CC system; eg. you can play multiple Spray Fires even though you only get to target the two hexes allowed by the first one. These sorts of tricks are part of the game's card cycling.
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beresford dickens
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JMcL63 wrote:
I disagree, because playing actions for no effect is established in the basic CC system; eg. you can play multiple Spray Fires even though you only get to target the two hexes allowed by the first one. These sorts of tricks are part of the game's card cycling.


You aren't disagreeing with me, because if you go back to my OP I say that playing cards to get rid of them is part of the system.

You said that it was only 'useful' in Open Ground or Fields.

1. This isn't true, I might want to get rid of the card knowing that playing it won't hurt me. I might even clear a LOS by getting rid of Blocking terrain.

2. The rule says 'the targeted hex is not a Building hex or a bridge hex, and does not contain a Fortification of any type'. It says nothing about Rubble, Streams, Marsh, Woods, etc.. It doesn't say that the terrain is substituted or it must be degradable to a Shellhole.

Can we wait until Pascal arrives to get The Word on this?
 
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John McLintock
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I was disagreeing with your suggestion that "Perhaps it should only be permissible in these cases." And Shellhole is a terrain type, so it seems obvious to me that using Go to Ground degrades the existing terrain if that can happen.
 
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Pascal TOUPY
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Go to ground can be played in these Terrains:
-Rubble
-Woods and Destroyed Woods
-Boulders
-Brush
-Orchard

-Field
-Gully
-Quarry

-Open Ground

(All these Terrains are Terrain that degrade to Shellhole)

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John McLintock
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bonzillou wrote:
Go to ground can be played in these Terrains:
-Rubble
-Woods and Destroyed Woods
-Boulders
-Brush
-Orchard
-Field
-Gully
-Quarry
-Open Ground

(All these Terrains are Terrain that degrade to Shellhole)


I see your point Pascal, but that changes the action's prerequisite in the rules.
Great War Commander wrote:
the targeted hex is not a Building hex or a Bridge hex, and does not contain a Fortification of any type.

Your ruling would require an erratum to exclude Marsh and Stream. It might be simpler to retain the precedent set by Combat Commander, and allow the action to be played to no effect in Marsh or Stream.
 
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Pascal TOUPY
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Marsh and Stream cannot be degraded to Shellhole.

But what about this which would avoid gamey effects exposed in above messages: (and negates my statement above):

the targeted hex is not a Building hex or a Bridge hex an Open Ground or Fields hex, and does not contain a Fortification of any type.

 
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beresford dickens
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bonzillou wrote:
Marsh and Stream cannot be degraded to Shellhole.

But what about this which would avoid gamey effects exposed in above messages: (and negates my statement above):

the targeted hex is not a Building hex or a Bridge hex an Open Ground or Fields hex, and does not contain a Fortification of any type.



Yeah with the addition 'or Brush'. That would be much more sensible than having the trees disappear because you have made a low odds FP attack on me.

While we have your undivided attention, there were a few points raised earlier:

1. Does inherent terrain (Woods, Boulders) affect hexside LOS?

2. If terrain degrades, does it remove any roads or railways in the hex?

3. Does a Shellhole marker affect hexside LOS?

4. If terrain degrades, what happens to any Fences, Walls etc. along its hexsides?
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John McLintock
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bonzillou wrote:
Marsh and Stream cannot be degraded to Shellhole.

But what about this which would avoid gamey effects exposed in above messages: (and negates my statement above):

the targeted hex is not a Building hex or a Bridge hex an Open Ground or Fields hex, and does not contain a Fortification of any type.


I agree with beresford that Brush, Field or Open Ground would be the best way to rewrite this rule.

EDIT. I've been thinking about this. Isn't the exclusion of Marsh and Stream the point here? Wouldn't it perhaps be simpler to rewrite the rule to exclude Marsh and Stream rather than specifying which terrain types you can Go to Ground in? After all, why couldn't a player choose to Go to Ground in terrain other than Field or Open Ground, or even Brush? They won't gain Cover, but they might gain a situational advantage from the terrain type changing to Shellhole. I don't see what's wrong with that myself. Failing that, I still agree with beresford.
 
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Pascal TOUPY
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beresford wrote:

While we have your undivided attention, there were a few points raised earlier:

1. Does inherent terrain (Woods, Boulders) affect hexside LOS?

2. If terrain degrades, does it remove any roads or railways in the hex?

3. Does a Shellhole marker affect hexside LOS?

4. If terrain degrades, what happens to any Fences, Walls etc. along its hexsides?


1. No. they are "blocking Terrain", not "hindrance Terrain"
2.yes
3.In its hex yes, but if it is adajacent to a hindrance Terrain hex, the mutual hexside will be hindered.
4. Fences, Walls, etc.. are still there
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Pascal TOUPY
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official errata:

A43. Go to Ground
Go to ground may only be played just prior to
the player making a Defense Roll under the
following two conditions:
●● the defending Formation is not a Tank; and
●● the targeted hex is an Open Ground hex
or a Field hex
, and does not contain a
Fortification of any type.
Effect—Places a Shellhole marker [T118]
into that hex. The Formation(s) in the hex will
benefit from the Shellhole cover during the
current Attack.
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beresford dickens
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OK inherent terrain doesn't affect hexsides.

EXCEPT if the hexside is shared by another inherent terrain hex. So for example I would expect the LOS along the common hexside of two adjacent Woods hexes to be blocked.
 
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Pascal TOUPY
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beresford wrote:
So for example I would expect the LOS along the common hexside of two adjacent Woods hexes to be blocked.


yes
 
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