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Warhammer Underworlds: Shadespire» Forums » Rules

Subject: Soultrap and necromancer command rss

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Mathieu Bissonnette
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In the last faq they talk about how it is possible to play necromancer command after last chance.
I was wondering if it would apply to soultrap too?
 
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Giovanni Cornara
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According to the FAQ on Last Chance, if the attack action doesn't deal damage it is considered to be failed, thus any effect that makes your opponent ignore the damage from an attack (soultrap, unkillable etc.) should potentially trigger effects that happen on a failed attack.

Personally, I think this should require an errata or clarification to the general rules, since as they are written now, they imply a one-way relationship between success and damage: you determine whether the attack is successful or not based on the amount of "success" or "critical success" symbols on the attacker and defender's dice, and then, if the attack is successful you deal the damaage, if it is not, you don't.
There's no telling in the rules that this relationship is biunivocal (i.e. failed attack = no damage dealt, no damage dealt = failed attack). As per the rules written, an attack that is successful could deal no damage if something (i.e. damage-ignoring effects) intervene, while FAQ 1.3 implies it's not the case. Therefore a general ruling should be provided IMHO.




 
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Kevin Outlaw
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Syrio Forel wrote:
According to the FAQ on Last Chance, if the attack action doesn't deal damage it is considered to be failed, thus any effect that makes your opponent ignore the damage from an attack (soultrap, unkillable etc.) should potentially trigger effects that happen on a failed attack.

Personally, I think this should require an errata or clarification to the general rules, since as they are written now, they imply a one-way relationship between success and damage: you determine whether the attack is successful or not based on the amount of "success" or "critical success" symbols on the attacker and defender's dice, and then, if the attack is successful you deal the damaage, if it is not, you don't.
There's no telling in the rules that this relationship is biunivocal (i.e. failed attack = no damage dealt, no damage dealt = failed attack). As per the rules written, an attack that is successful could deal no damage if something (i.e. damage-ignoring effects) intervene, while FAQ 1.3 implies it's not the case. Therefore a general ruling should be provided IMHO.






Note that in the glossary the terms are defined as:

Succeeds = An attack action that causes damage succeeds.
Fails = An attack action that doesn't cause damage fails.
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Giovanni Cornara
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RedMonkeyBoy wrote:
Syrio Forel wrote:
According to the FAQ on Last Chance, if the attack action doesn't deal damage it is considered to be failed, thus any effect that makes your opponent ignore the damage from an attack (soultrap, unkillable etc.) should potentially trigger effects that happen on a failed attack.

Personally, I think this should require an errata or clarification to the general rules, since as they are written now, they imply a one-way relationship between success and damage: you determine whether the attack is successful or not based on the amount of "success" or "critical success" symbols on the attacker and defender's dice, and then, if the attack is successful you deal the damaage, if it is not, you don't.
There's no telling in the rules that this relationship is biunivocal (i.e. failed attack = no damage dealt, no damage dealt = failed attack). As per the rules written, an attack that is successful could deal no damage if something (i.e. damage-ignoring effects) intervene, while FAQ 1.3 implies it's not the case. Therefore a general ruling should be provided IMHO.






Note that in the glossary the terms are defined as:

Succeeds = An attack action that causes damage succeeds.
Fails = An attack action that doesn't cause damage fails.



Missed that. Thanks.

So the FAQ addresses an issue already covered by the rules and doesn't introduce any new interpretation. That's fine.

Now my complaint changes to: it should have been written in the main body of the rules and then reported in the glossary!

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Mathieu Bissonnette
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So would you agree that if we only use the succesful attack and failed attack definition I would be able to use necromancer command?
 
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Giovanni Cornara
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Bissonnette754 wrote:
So would you agree that if we only use the succesful attack and failed attack definition I would be able to use necromancer command?


Yes. Based on the definitions in the rules and glossary all of the following are true:

Any attack action that succeeds causes damage.
Any attack action that causes damage succeeds.
Any attack action that fails doesn't cause damage.
Any attack action that doesn't cause damage fails.

Therefore, any effect that says to "ignore the damage" of an attack or that causes the target to suffer no damage automatically makes that attack fail.

Such effects currently are:

- Unkillable - Ironskull Boyz upgrade (#115)
- Berserk Fury - Chosen Axes ploy (#126)
- Grimnir's Blessing - Chosen Axes upgrade (#141)
- Frozen in Time - Universal ploy (#326) - won't attack a fighter that is frozen in time on purpose, but maybe they can be in the path of a multi-target attack.
- Last Chance - Universal ploy (#336)
- On your Feet - Universl ploy (#345)
- Soultrap - Universal upgrade (#420)

I would argue that Rebound (#349) would make the attack count as failed as the damage is still dealt, though not at its original target. The same goes for Rebirth in Blood (#18), where the fighter suffers the damage from the attack, is taken out of action and is then returned on the field with all wounds healed.
Not 100% sure on Expendable. Technically you would remove the fighter from the battlefield before it suffers the damage, so the attack doesn't actually deal any damage as the target is not there anymore... under these assumption I would classify it as a failed attack, but that's maybe stretching the definition too far.
 
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Kevin Outlaw
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Syrio Forel wrote:

I would argue that Rebound (#349) would make the attack count as failed as the damage is still dealt, though not at its original target. The same goes for Rebirth in Blood (#18), where the fighter suffers the damage from the attack, is taken out of action and is then returned on the field with all wounds healed.
Not 100% sure on Expendable. Technically you would remove the fighter from the battlefield before it suffers the damage, so the attack doesn't actually deal any damage as the target is not there anymore... under these assumption I would classify it as a failed attack, but that's maybe stretching the definition too far.


I would definitely argue that expendable counts as a failed attack - you remove the model before damage, and your opponent doesn't even get a glory.

With Rebound, things get sticky. Arguably the attack is successful - it still inflicts damage. But clearly, it wasn't successful. I'm sure this is a situation where the intent of the rules is that "succeeds" implies the attack dealt the damage to the target, but that isn't what the rules as written says.

Rebirth in Blood is definitely a success - you apply the damage and kill the target. It then regens with full hit points. The damage went through and was applied, the model was taken out of play and grants glory, so it was an attack that caused damage.
 
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SirPent
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The opponent used "Soultrap" or "Last Chance",can I push him after that?
 
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Kevin Outlaw
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SirPent wrote:
The opponent used "Soultrap" or "Last Chance",can I push him after that?


Push him with what?
 
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SirPent
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Sorry..., the attack he would have died before
 
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