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Subject: Crime Watch: Waiting at a Starbucks While Black rss

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Rachel Simmons
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http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2018/04/14/philly-starbucks...

So, a couple black guys were sitting at a Starbucks, waiting for a friend to show up. The alert staff, noticing that the guys were black, called the police, who arrested them. Other customers were baffled and kept asking what was going on.

The guys' friend showed up while they were being led out in handcuffs.

[Not racist at all of course; this exact same thing happens to white people all the time.]
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Lola Granola
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WHAT THE FUCK!!!!!!!
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Vic Lineal
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Say no more - they were at a Starbucks, so probably bohemian black hipsters.
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Pontifex Maximus
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LolaGranola wrote:
WHAT THE FUCK!!!!!!!


One of the more sad lines from this case

Quote:
The men, who have not been identified, were later released after Starbucks declined to press trespassing charges.


https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Outrage-Over-Vide...

A little more recognition of the fact that these were bullshit charges was probably in order.

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Mac Mcleod
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Here's the corporate contact information.

https://customerservice.starbucks.com/app/contact/ask_compan...

I did not see that StarBucks covered any costs resulting from the arrests.

I wrote a letter to the social responsibility link and asked that they cover the costs associated with the arrests and have the district manager, and manager make a *personal* apology rather than an impersonal corporate apology.

That said... starbucks was in their legal rights to ask a non-customer to leave after a reasonable period of time and to escalate to the police if the non-customers refuse to leave. The tho is would they do the same to a couple of attractive young white or asian females?



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Asking for directions while black can get you shot at.

shake

WTF is wrong with these people?!?!?


http://www.fox2detroit.com/news/local-news/black-teen-misses...

I am happy the home owner's own security cameras proved the boy's story was the accurate one.

I wish there was a way to charge the woman with a crime. She is the one really responsible for this insane incident.

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Josh
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Meerkat wrote:


Asking for directions while black can get you shot at.

shake

WTF is wrong with these people?!?!?


http://www.fox2detroit.com/news/local-news/black-teen-misses...

I am happy the home owner's own security cameras proved the boy's story was the accurate one.

I wish there was a way to charge the woman with a crime. She is the one really responsible for this insane incident.



Inciting a riot? Disturbing the peace?
 
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Jamie Hankins
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The video suggests that they had not bought anything and refused to leave when asked, which isn't acceptable behaviour (if you want to use a Starbucks for a meeting, then at least buy a drink).

That being said, arresting them seems a bit OTT. Dispersing some customers that refuse to leave an establishment seems like something that could have been achieved without arrest.

Maybe they refused to leave when requested by staff and by police... but that doesn't seem to be backed up by the reactions by other customers, so seems like a needlessly and counter-productively heavy-handed response by the police (at the very least).

All very similar to what's been seen in other threads; seems like there are a lot of assholes drawn to police work that are just overly eager to impose the authority that they've been entrusted with.
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Scott O'Brien
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Local news said the man asked to use the restroom, and the store had a policy that you cannot use the restroom unless you buy something.
The employee asked the men to leave and when they would not, the police were called.

http://www.post-gazette.com/news/state/2018/04/14/Starbucks-...

Quote:
An employee called the police for help to get the men out of the store but later regretted that it escalated into an arrest, said a company official familiar with the incident, who declined to give a name to freely describe internal discussions. The employee was doing the right thing according to store policy, the official told The Post, but the company is evaluating its guidance out of concern that the options and decisions may not be clear.


Quote:
After the arrest, the police were also being criticized for their handling of the situation. Police Commissioner Richard Ross addressed the incident on Facebook Live Saturday, saying that one or both of the men asked to use the restroom but had not purchased anything. An employee said the Starbucks company policy was to refuse use of the bathrooms to nonpaying members of the public and asked the men to leave, according to Commissioner Ross. The employee called the police when they refused.

“These officers did absolutely nothing wrong. They followed policy; they did what they were supposed to do. They were professional in all their dealings with these gentlemen,” Commissioner Ross said. “And instead, they got the opposite back.” Commissioner Ross said police arrested the men after they refused three requests to leave.
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That's trespassing.
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Seth Smith
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Wight1984 wrote:
The video suggests that they had not bought anything and refused to leave when asked, which isn't acceptable behaviour (if you want to use a Starbucks for a meeting, then at least buy a drink).


Is it? I see people in Starbucks all the time who are just there for the space and don't buy anything.
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GoSteelers wrote:
Wight1984 wrote:
The video suggests that they had not bought anything and refused to leave when asked, which isn't acceptable behaviour (if you want to use a Starbucks for a meeting, then at least buy a drink).


Is it? I see people in Starbucks all the time who are just there for the space and don't buy anything.
technically it is. It is just seldom enforced, akin to jaywalking.
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Jamie Hankins
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Shadrach wrote:
GoSteelers wrote:
Wight1984 wrote:
The video suggests that they had not bought anything and refused to leave when asked, which isn't acceptable behaviour (if you want to use a Starbucks for a meeting, then at least buy a drink).


Is it? I see people in Starbucks all the time who are just there for the space and don't buy anything.
technically it is. It is just seldom enforced, akin to jaywalking.


If it's selectively enforced so as to discriminate against certain groups, then that's not okay... but the tablespace in a cafe, pub or restaurant has business value* and it seems entirely fair for owners of such businesses to require that visitors buy something or leave.

*Actual value does vary by how busy the cafe is, so I can understand turning a blind eye during unbusy periods... but I'd still personally feel inclined to at least buy a drink when taking up tablespace and I would consider it well within a business's rights to ask me to leave if I refused to make any kind of order.
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Goddamn, Philly. Don't keep doing this shit. It's pathetic.
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Jythier wrote:
That's trespassing.


No it isn't. Starbucks is open to the public by design. Can I ask you something? Do you ever meet someone else somewhere for a coffee? If you don't order a coffee until the other party arrives, are you trespassing?
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Wight1984 wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
GoSteelers wrote:
Wight1984 wrote:
The video suggests that they had not bought anything and refused to leave when asked, which isn't acceptable behaviour (if you want to use a Starbucks for a meeting, then at least buy a drink).


Is it? I see people in Starbucks all the time who are just there for the space and don't buy anything.
technically it is. It is just seldom enforced, akin to jaywalking.


If it's selectively enforced so as to discriminate against certain groups, then that's not okay... but the tablespace in a cafe, pub or restaurant has business value* and it seems entirely fair for owners of such businesses to require that visitors buy something or leave.

*Actual value does vary by how busy the cafe is, so I can understand turning a blind eye during unbusy periods... but I'd still personally feel inclined to at least buy a drink when taking up tablespace and I would consider it well within a business's rights to ask me to leave if I refused to make any kind of order.


Oh come on. If it isn't busy, and they don't need the table, then someone telling you that they are waiting for someone is perfectly normal. It's certainly not "call the cops worthy."
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Jythier wrote:
That's trespassing.


If I got arrested for every time I met someone up at a business or used their bathroom and didn't buy anything I'd have been arrested, well, a LOT.

And I suspect the same is true for most people.

But here's the key question, how did Starbucks know they weren't going to buy coffee once their friend arrived? The whole thing screams racism to me. But I suspect everyone who doesn't see the systemic racism in our society will point to the "that's trespassing!" thing too.
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Derry Salewski
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Is there a special word for like...combo ism? Old black guys prob weren't getting kicked out. White dudes probably weren't. Black women probably weren't.

I've been kicked out of places for just using wifi before and loitering (white dude.)

Shrugs.

Racism is pretty lame.
 
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Shadrach wrote:
GoSteelers wrote:
Wight1984 wrote:
The video suggests that they had not bought anything and refused to leave when asked, which isn't acceptable behaviour (if you want to use a Starbucks for a meeting, then at least buy a drink).


Is it? I see people in Starbucks all the time who are just there for the space and don't buy anything.
technically it is. It is just seldom enforced, akin to jaywalking.


So, another of those crimes that are only enforced for young black men?
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Sue_G wrote:
Jythier wrote:
That's trespassing.


No it isn't. Starbucks is open to the public by design. Can I ask you something? Do you ever meet someone else somewhere for a coffee? If you don't order a coffee until the other party arrives, are you trespassing?


I think maybe you don't apprehend what trespass is because the situation as described looks very much like trespass--or maybe US trespass is distinctly unlike trespass I'm familiar and you're right.

Starbucks is private property which is open to the public expressly to allow the purchase of commestibles and beverages with some seating available for those items to be consumed on premises. These people who buy stuff are called customers.

The men in question were apparently asked to leave when they called attention to themselves as not being customers. Remember, customers buy stuff. Now, you and I don't know but it's pretty likely that if they guy who wanted to use the restroom said, "Sure, I'll take a chai grande with vanilla syrup, have here, name Smith," he wouldn't have been asked to leave.

Instead, when an employee said, something like "Sorry, policy says the restroom and the seats are for customers and you guys haven't bought anything so I'm going to have ask you to leave," it's much more likely they guy didn't buy anything and just went back to sitting down.

While maybe it doesn't, it's fairly safe to assume that US law has a statute or interpretation very similar to: An individual's presence in a certain place becomes trespass to land when his right to access that place expires.

Being directed by an employee to leave indicates that their right to access has expired.

Even when asked to leave there's a chance they could have said, "Sorry, we'll split a muffin, now can I have the restroom key?" or whatever but again, doesn't seem like that happened.

Do I think this situation was escalated beyond need? Yes.

Do I think they men need to hold themselves accountable for their arrest? Yes. They were directed to leave and didn't. The men could have just waited outside the Starbucks. They didn't.

I very much hope that the peace officers first directed the men to leave, a perfectly legal direction, and only after the men did not show their willingness to comply were they arrested.

If they men had simply ordered while waiting, or hadn't asked to go to the restroom, looks like no problem. I don't see racism here, I see two guys who drew attention to them not doing the right thing on private property and who could have de-escalated the siutation at any time prior to the actual arrest.
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blaecblaed wrote:
Sue_G wrote:
Jythier wrote:
That's trespassing.


No it isn't. Starbucks is open to the public by design. Can I ask you something? Do you ever meet someone else somewhere for a coffee? If you don't order a coffee until the other party arrives, are you trespassing?


I think maybe you don't apprehend what trespass is because the situation as described looks very much like trespass--or maybe US trespass is distinctly unlike trespass I'm familiar and you're right.

Starbucks is private property which is open to the public expressly to allow the purchase of commestibles and beverages with some seating available for those items to be consumed on premises. These people who buy stuff are called customers.

The men in question were apparently asked to leave when they called attention to themselves as not being customers. Remember, customers buy stuff. Now, you and I don't know but it's pretty likely that if they guy who wanted to use the restroom said, "Sure, I'll take a chai grande with vanilla syrup, have here, name Smith," he wouldn't have been asked to leave.

Instead, when an employee said, something like "Sorry, policy says the restroom and the seats are for customers and you guys haven't bought anything so I'm going to have ask you to leave," it's much more likely they guy didn't buy anything and just went back to sitting down.

While maybe it doesn't, it's fairly safe to assume that US law has a statute or interpretation very similar to: An individual's presence in a certain place becomes trespass to land when his right to access that place expires.

Being directed by an employee to leave indicates that their right to access has expired.

Even when asked to leave there's a chance they could have said, "Sorry, we'll split a muffin, now can I have the restroom key?" or whatever but again, doesn't seem like that happened.

Do I think this situation was escalated beyond need? Yes.

Do I think they men need to hold themselves accountable for their arrest? Yes. They were directed to leave and didn't. The men could have just waited outside the Starbucks. They didn't.

I very much hope that the peace officers first directed the men to leave, a perfectly legal direction, and only after the men did not show their willingness to comply were they arrested.

If they men had simply ordered while waiting, or hadn't asked to go to the restroom, looks like no problem. I don't see racism here, I see two guys who drew attention to them not doing the right thing on private property and who could have de-escalated the siutation at any time prior to the actual arrest.


What others see here is the unequal application of the law based upon race. Starbucks seems to think what happened was wrong, and the DA did not even process a charge so they don't see any crime or fault either
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Jamie Hankins
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Sue_G wrote:
Wight1984 wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
GoSteelers wrote:
Wight1984 wrote:
The video suggests that they had not bought anything and refused to leave when asked, which isn't acceptable behaviour (if you want to use a Starbucks for a meeting, then at least buy a drink).


Is it? I see people in Starbucks all the time who are just there for the space and don't buy anything.
technically it is. It is just seldom enforced, akin to jaywalking.


If it's selectively enforced so as to discriminate against certain groups, then that's not okay... but the tablespace in a cafe, pub or restaurant has business value* and it seems entirely fair for owners of such businesses to require that visitors buy something or leave.

*Actual value does vary by how busy the cafe is, so I can understand turning a blind eye during unbusy periods... but I'd still personally feel inclined to at least buy a drink when taking up tablespace and I would consider it well within a business's rights to ask me to leave if I refused to make any kind of order.


Oh come on. If it isn't busy, and they don't need the table, then someone telling you that they are waiting for someone is perfectly normal. It's certainly not "call the cops worthy."


I don't know how busy it was, how long they'd been waiting before being asked to leave, how they reacted to being asked to leave, or how the police handled the situation on arrival.

That being said, it seems very plausible to me that some level of racial bias was involved here. As I said in my first post, the reaction to this does seem very very heavy-handed and it is very believable that it was discriminatory.

However, the fact remains that owners of cafes do have the right to ask non-paying customers to leave if they refuse to buy a drink. That's a reasonable right that owners of cafes should have. If you're at a cafe and you're asked to buy a drink of leave, then you ought to pick one of those two options. Refusing to buy anything or leave when asked is not appropriate behaviour.

I can appreciate begrudging being asked to buy a drink if the same request is not made of other non-customers (and maybe that helps explain why the men allegedly refused to buy a drink) but it would be entirely reasonable for any cafe to make that that kind of request provided that they do so for all non-customers taking up table-space.
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sao123 wrote:
Local news said the man asked to use the restroom, and the store had a policy that you cannot use the restroom unless you buy something.
The employee asked the men to leave and when they would not, the police were called.

http://www.post-gazette.com/news/state/2018/04/14/Starbucks-...

Quote:
An employee called the police for help to get the men out of the store but later regretted that it escalated into an arrest, said a company official familiar with the incident, who declined to give a name to freely describe internal discussions. The employee was doing the right thing according to store policy, the official told The Post, but the company is evaluating its guidance out of concern that the options and decisions may not be clear.


Quote:
After the arrest, the police were also being criticized for their handling of the situation. Police Commissioner Richard Ross addressed the incident on Facebook Live Saturday, saying that one or both of the men asked to use the restroom but had not purchased anything. An employee said the Starbucks company policy was to refuse use of the bathrooms to nonpaying members of the public and asked the men to leave, according to Commissioner Ross. The employee called the police when they refused.

“These officers did absolutely nothing wrong. They followed policy; they did what they were supposed to do. They were professional in all their dealings with these gentlemen,” Commissioner Ross said. “And instead, they got the opposite back.” Commissioner Ross said police arrested the men after they refused three requests to leave.


From the same article:

Quote:
After the arrest, the police were also being criticized for their handling of the situation. Police Commissioner Richard Ross addressed the incident on Facebook Live Saturday, saying that one or both of the men asked to use the restroom but had not purchased anything. An employee said the Starbucks company policy was to refuse use of the bathrooms to nonpaying members of the public and asked the men to leave, according to Commissioner Ross. The employee called the police when they refused.


Not much to say here other than to speculate but, as written, this seems odd. If I had a 'customers only bathroom' policy, then my response would be something along the lines 'Sorry but the bathroom is only for customers; would you like to buy a coffee?' rather than 'the bathroom is for customers only; please leave.'

Similarly, when the police arrived, the best way to deescalate the situation would have been for the men involved to be given the choice of buying a coffee or being escorted out of the premises. It's hard to understand how this should have resulted in an arrest.

Quote:
Commissioner Ross, a black man, said he was aware of issues of implicit bias - unconscious discrimination based on race - but did not say whether he believed it applied in this case. He said the incident underscores the need for more body-worn cameras to present different perspectives of police responses. The officers were not wearing cameras, he said.


Definitely agree with this. Body cameras should be worn by all police (and they should not be allowed to turn them off while on duty). That offers protection to both the police and the people they interact with.
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I think about the late friend. Maybe he’s one of those dudes who is always late. You know, he texts his buddies “be there in ten” and then he arrives 50 minutes later, just in time to see his friends escorted out in cuffs while they’re protesting, “we’re just waiting for a friend!”
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It's still trespass whether you don't want it to be or not though. And when an agent of the property owner/renter asks you to leave you are not allowed to be there anymore. And when the police verify that and then verify with you three times you're not going to leave, you get arrested and there's really nothing they can do differently. If it ends up being that they only ask black people to leave, though, then you have a different problem. But it's still trespass.
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