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Subject: Druidic Staff rss

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I assume Druidic staff provokes enemies, right?
 
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Ben Kyo
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Why?

No, it does not provoke enemies and acts much like a teleport:

Quote:
Some effects directly allow you to move one or more spaces. For this, you do not pay any cost other than what the effect states, and you may also move over inaccessible spaces (including those occupied by rampaging enemies or fortified sites), unless stated otherwise.
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Benkyo wrote:
Why?


Thank You. Because it is not written on the card and i wanted confirmation. I know since lost legion they have omit certain sections.

Quote:
Some effects directly allow you to move one or more spaces. For this, you do not pay any cost other than what the effect states, and you may also move over inaccessible spaces (including those occupied by rampaging enemies or fortified sites), unless stated otherwise.


Where is this section from? I couldn't find it.

 
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Evil Brother
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Benkyo wrote:
No, ..

Why not?

The following rules are relevant (as far as I can see).
Rulebook, page 6, left column, under 4:
Quote:
b. You are not allowed to enter a space occupied by a rampaging enemy (orc marauder or draconum) until they are defeated.
c. If you provoke a rampaging enemy (i.e. move directly from a space adjacent to their token to another space adjacent to the same token), you are attacked by that enemy and your movement immediately ends.

And page 6, middle column, under 7:
Quote:
c.Some effects directly allow you to move one or more spaces. For this, you do not pay any cost other than what the effect states, and you may also move over inaccessible spaces (including those occupied by rampaging enemies or fortified sites), unless stated otherwise.


7c overrules 4b with its "including those occupied by rampaging enemies"-part. There is however nothing in 7c (or any other part of the rules that I can find) that modifies anything that is in 4c. I would thus conclude that if you move directly from one adjacent space to another adjacent space, you would provoke the enemy. Note that moving over the rampaging enemy wouldn't provoke it as a space isn't adjacent to itself.

(Edit: corrected 7b to 7c... the letter got lost in the copying process and I misremembered the letter.)
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Ben Kyo
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Qutu wrote:
Benkyo wrote:
Why?


Thank You. Because it is not written on the card and i wanted confirmation. I know since lost legion they have omit certain sections.

Quote:
Some effects directly allow you to move one or more spaces. For this, you do not pay any cost other than what the effect states, and you may also move over inaccessible spaces (including those occupied by rampaging enemies or fortified sites), unless stated otherwise.


Where is this section from? I couldn't find it.


p6 Movement 7.c
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So as far as ican follow:

1) Druidic staff should have written like other cards from the base game (...this doesn't provoke enemies...). They just skipped it right?

2) Moving through/over fortifications and rampaging enemies is possible with such effects, right?
 
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Ben Kyo
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Qutu wrote:
So as far as ican follow:

1) Druidic staff should have written like other cards from the base game (...this doesn't provoke enemies...). They just skipped it right?

2) Moving through/over fortifications and rampaging enemies is possible with such effects, right?

Sounds right to me. I'm guessing they skipped the additional text because the card is pretty busy already.
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I interpret Druidic Staff as only allowing you to move one or two spaces without paying the usual movement cost of those spaces. You don't "fly" over them. Therefore, you do provoke rampaging enemies and you can't move through a space occupied by an enemy.
 
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Gene Selfish
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In my mind, MK has a general rule that sounds like this:
"If any card or effect allows you to move one or more spaces without paying a cost that depends on the terrain types you're moving into, that move doesn't provoke rampaging enemies and can pass through unsafe spaces, unless otherwise stated"

To me, even the wording on druidic staff seems to confirm this general rule, if anything because it only feels the need to specify something about the the *final* space (it must be safe), as if the other one was simply skipped with a teleportation.
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Evil Brother
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Do people who feel like it should work like teleportation have any actual rule or ruling to back up that feeling? If so, please provide the source.
 
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Evil Brother wrote:
Do people who feel like it should work like teleportation have any actual rule or ruling to back up that feeling? If so, please provide the source.


There's no source that says directly "druidic staff does not provoke rampaging enemies", but almost every other piece of evidence supports that idea. It's kind of like a murder mystery where no one saw it happen but you found the suspect wearing gloves and holding the murder weapon.

For example

Lost Legion Rulebook wrote:

However, this Move cost is ignored by effects that allow you to move directly (Underground Travel, Wings of Wind, Druidic Staff , Flight, Temporal Portal etc.) and also when the Space Bending effect is active.


Every one of these effects grouped together by the rulebook, except for druidic staff, says does not provoke rampaging enemies. We can only assume in the staff's case there just wasn't room on the card for this reminder text.
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Evil Brother
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Lost Legion Rulebook wrote:

However, this Move cost is ignored by effects that allow you to move directly (Underground Travel, Wings of Wind, Druidic Staff , Flight, Temporal Portal etc.) and also when the Space Bending effect is active.

The rules give examples of effects that allow you to move directly. These examples are correct. The fact that they all allow you to move directly doesn't mean that they thus function similarly in all other aspects. That does not logically follow.

For example: People who wear shoes (Usain Bolt, Tyson Gay, Asafa Powell, Maurice Greene, Evil Brother, etc.) can often run. Just because all others in the list I've given can run the 100 meter sprint under 10 seconds, doesn't mean I can (Not even if all other people in the world could run the 100 meter sprint in under 10 seconds).

The problem thus remains the same: The conclusion that Druidic Staff doesn't provoke enemies is only based on feelings that this should be the case. It isn't the conclusion that you get when you logically combine what is actually written in the rules and on the cards.

Just to be clear: You can play Mage Knight any way you want to. What I object to is the position that we need to piece together what was intended while there is no conflict in the rules as written.
 
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Ben Kyo
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Evil Brother wrote:
Lost Legion Rulebook wrote:

However, this Move cost is ignored by effects that allow you to move directly (Underground Travel, Wings of Wind, Druidic Staff , Flight, Temporal Portal etc.) and also when the Space Bending effect is active.

The rules give examples of effects that allow you to move directly. These examples are correct. The fact that they all allow you to move directly doesn't mean that they thus function similarly in all other aspects. That does not logically follow.

For example: People who wear shoes (Usain Bolt, Tyson Gay, Asafa Powell, Maurice Greene, Evil Brother, etc.) can often run. Just because all others in the list I've given can run the 100 meter sprint under 10 seconds, doesn't mean I can (Not even if all other people in the world could run the 100 meter sprint in under 10 seconds).

The problem thus remains the same: The conclusion that Druidic Staff doesn't provoke enemies is only based on feelings that this should be the case. It isn't the conclusion that you get when you logically combine what is actually written in the rules and on the cards.

Just to be clear: You can play Mage Knight any way you want to. What I object to is the position that we need to piece together what was intended while there is no conflict in the rules as written.


Expansion content is not as rigorously worded as base game content. No watertight logical argument is going to lead you to an indisputable conclusion that Druidic Staff doesn't provoke rampaging enemies. However, we can note that Wings of Wind, Flight, Space Bending, and Underground Travel have not provoking as a stated effect in line with other effects, while Temporal Portal for some reason relegates this to a clause in brackets. This is at least evidence that whoever edited the expansion cards treated the non-provocation clause differently to the original cards.

I'll probably regret this, but do you have a "logical" way of dealing with Circlet of Proficiency and Bonds of Loyalty? Is the "logical" way of dealing with the interaction between Shapeshifting and Cold Toughness the correct one? (Answer:No) How about Shapeshifting and One with the Land? Armor reduction and Defense timing?

Sometimes looking for intent, and making some educated guesses, are effective ways of interpreting rules.

In this case, I'd say there is sufficient evidence that the only reason Druidic Staff does not specify that it does not provoke rampaging enemies is that someone or some people who edited the card thought it didn't need specifying, and wanted to keep the word count down. The alternative is to assume that Temporal Portal (for example) was written differently for no reason, and that Druidic Staff is a unique exception to other direct movement cards in that it allows you to jump right over rampaging enemies without provoking them, or jump next to them and provoke them, and it is unique in this way without any indication anywhere of its uniqueness. Seems like an unlikely design choice to me.

Of course, you are also free to play Mage Knight in any way you choose. What I object to is your assertion that your way is the only correct way to interpret rules.
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Evil Brother
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Benkyo wrote:
What I object to is your assertion that your way is the only correct way to interpret rules.

I am not asserting that. It follows from your lack of proof. You clearly also agree with that (that's why you need to make excuses as "not rigorously worded" and "making some educated guesses"), you just don't want to follow the conclusion.
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Evil Brother wrote:
Benkyo wrote:
What I object to is your assertion that your way is the only correct way to interpret rules.

I am not asserting that. It follows from your lack of proof. You clearly also agree with that (that's why you need to make excuses as "not rigorously worded" and "making some educated guesses"), you just don't want to follow the conclusion.

Now you abandon logic. "Evil Brother's way of interpreting rules is the only correct way" does not follow from my lack of proof for my own conclusion about how Druidic Staff probably works.

Given that my argument is essentially that formal logic is not always the best way to arrive at the right answer when interpreting rules (and more specifically that it is not the best way with regard to certain aspects of Mage Knight expansions rules), I'm not particularly bothered about your own lack of rigour in applying formal logic to a forum argument, but I get the message loud and clear - you aren't interested in anything I write here.
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Suppose you have read the rules of Mage Knight (including all the expansions and the FAQ, although you only need 4b, 4c and 7c as no other rule seems to relate to this), but you are unaware of all the cards that cause direct movement. You play the game and encounter Druidic Staff for the first time. Would you then think that you could 'trigger' rampaging enemies with the resulting movement?

If your answer is "no" then I would like to know what you would base this on as you can't base it on knowledge of the other cards (as you don't know them yet).

If your answer is "I wouldn't know what to do" then I would like to know why you don't know from the rules that you know. What would be unclear?
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Evil Brother wrote:
Suppose you have read the rules of Mage Knight (including all the expansions and the FAQ, although you only need 4b, 4c and 7c as no other rule seems to relate to this), but you are unaware of all the cards that cause direct movement. You play the game and encounter Druidic Staff for the first time. Would you then think that you could 'trigger' rampaging enemies with the resulting movement?

If your answer is "no" then I would like to know what you would base this on as you can't base it on knowledge of the other cards (as you don't know them yet).

If your answer is "I wouldn't know what to do" then I would like to know why you don't know from the rules that you know. What would be unclear?

Well, I would be aware of the above-quoted clarification regarding Walls from the Lost Legion rulebook, and therefore necessarily aware of the other direct movement cards. I'd then check those cards, note the formatting choices, and arrive at the conclusion I outlined above.

I don't see the value in excising certain parts of our knowledge in order to interpret a rule.
 
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Benkyo wrote:
Well, I would be aware of the above-quoted clarification regarding Walls from the Lost Legion rulebook, and therefore necessarily aware of the other direct movement cards.

You really want to dodge answering the question, don't you?

Fine, lets make it easier for you. Suppose that none of the cards have the text to avoid provoking an enemy... what would be your answer then?
 
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Evil Brother wrote:
Benkyo wrote:
Well, I would be aware of the above-quoted clarification regarding Walls from the Lost Legion rulebook, and therefore necessarily aware of the other direct movement cards.

You really want to dodge answering the question, don't you?

Fine, lets make it easier for you. Suppose that none of the cards have the text to avoid provoking an enemy... what would be your answer then?

I answered your question, don't pretend I didn't. The Lost Legion rules were a permitted reference according to your question.

If none of the cards had any text regarding provoking enemies, I would assume that enemies could be provoked as usual. I trust the base game rules and would assume that this quirk was intended and not an oversight, but I'm sure "does direct movement provoke rampaging enemies?" would have become a frequently asked question, because many people do look for "thematic" consistency, and there would have been official clarification. I don't think that your hypothetical situation is very realistic though, given the card effects we are talking about, the high quality of the base game rulebook, and the fact that Vlaada is very keen on tying rules to theme.
 
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Benkyo wrote:
If none of the cards had any text regarding provoking enemies, I would assume that enemies could be provoked as usual.

But you would have to look at all the cards before you could come to that conclusion? So you think that the written rules are ambiguous?

 
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Evil Brother wrote:
Benkyo wrote:
If none of the cards had any text regarding provoking enemies, I would assume that enemies could be provoked as usual.

But you would have to look at all the cards before you could come to that conclusion? So you think that the written rules are ambiguous?

I don't understand your questions.

The conclusion you quoted is a hypothetical one, based on the condition you set: "Suppose that none of the cards have the text to avoid provoking an enemy". In that situation, there are no circumstances under which moving adjacent to adjacent does not provoke a rampaging enemy, so there is no ambiguity.

Likewise, looking at the actual rules and not dealing in hypothetical situations, I think the rules of the base game, which includes the cards, are clear and unambiguous, with a few key exceptions that aren't relevant here.

However, I think some of the rules of the expansions, including some of the cards, are ambiguous due to omission, poor wording, or poor integration with the base game rules.
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Benkyo wrote:
The conclusion you quoted is a hypothetical one, based on the condition you set: "Suppose that none of the cards have the text to avoid provoking an enemy". In that situation, there are no circumstances under which moving adjacent to adjacent does not provoke a rampaging enemy, so there is no ambiguity.

But you are unable to tell whether the written rules (as in the rulebooks, not as in the text on cards), in this hypothetical situation, are ambiguous or not without looking at the cards?


 
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Evil brother, you've been trying to provoke benkyo with Druidic staff for hours now and it didn't work, so I guess it doesn't in the game either.
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That is pretty funny.

I haven't given up on understanding Benkyo point of view yet though...
 
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Evil Brother wrote:
But you are unable to tell whether the written rules (as in the rulebooks, not as in the text on cards), in this hypothetical situation, are ambiguous or not without looking at the cards?
Of course you can't. Depending on how the game is written (is the author consistent with the definitions, or is he using different names for the same thing? How precise are the rules and the cards, is there room for interpretation or it's crystal clear? etc.) you'll follow a rule without question or try to understand (or guess) the author's intention.

Are you telling that you don't use this context information to understand game cards and rules?

If Improvisation said "move 30, attack 3, block 3 or influence 3" you'll know there is a typo in the card. But you'd use the full knowledge of the game for that, not only the rulebook.
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