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Star Wars: X-Wing Miniatures Game» Forums » General

Subject: My question rss

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Michael Wood
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I own a small set of X-Wing (Three TIES, Three Rebs) and it came out for a play last night. I think it was our fourth or fifth play and the two sides were equal on points to create a balance but immediately after a question emerged:

Where is the fun?

Obviously there is a simple answer to this. The fun is in being a X-Wing blasting TIEs out of space. You pull of great moves, get the odd bump to the shields but you get the TIE in your sights and one shot it.

Where is the fun on being the Empire? With the best pilots in the best ships the game was still very, very easy for the Rebels. The Rebel ships can take two or three hits, the Empire's one and is you assume that there is not a significant difference the players abilities (IE that you are both adults) then there seems no way for the Empire to out hit the Rebels 2.5:1.

Losing in the game is not fun in the way that - say - losing a four hour game of Rebellion can leave you excited for the next. Its just demoralising.

Now ruling out the idea that one should just "get better"at the game (because even if I were to so would the people I play against and those things would cancel each other out) or that I should invest in a load of Scum ships (because that is not solving the problem with THIS game, its buying and playing ANOTHER game) where is the fun in the game.

The winner feels like it is too easy, the loser like it is impossible. The loser makes a variety of different tactical choices but they always result in the same one shot situation. So my question (and his) was where is the fun?

Can someone point me to something I might have overlooked that could improve the experience, or something that might be able to make for a different but better experience, or at least mock me lightly in a way that will be amusing because as it is I struggle to believe that such a massively unbalanced, uninteresting game is on the market and well respected.
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Richard Dickson
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It's hard to say without knowing the specific ships you have, but there are match-ups and combos that will be very one-sided depending on the individual builds.
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Jack Gibson
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Michael,

It's funny, I was just coming on here to post a thread about how much I love this game when I saw your thread questioning why it's fun. My 14 year old son and I just started playing less than a year ago. We started out just like you with a few Tie's and X wing's. If you've seen the "MISTAKES WERE MADE!" comic, that's where I'm at now. lol.


We stopped at some point. I think it was because of exactly what you stated in your post. I always play as Imperials and I always lose! I usually lose without even killing one of his ships. I got tired of losing.

I also got tired of trying to keep up with all the errata. I've come to realize, that we don't play in any competitions, so I don't have to worry about it. I got tired of his endlessly rolling hits and evades while I roll blanks. I'm the worse die roller in history and my son might be the best. His rolls have made me want to flip the table on many occasions. I've come to realize that you have to learn to set up your lists to mitigate that and give yourself lots of re-rolls and modifiers. (I'm still learning on this one).

I was tired of him seemingly always having shots on my ships while I struggled to get him in arc. But, that's on me. I do need to fly better. I need to build my lists better. I need my dull 51 year old mind to outthink his bright, young 14 year old mind.

With all that being said and without giving you the answer that your looking for, I completely understand your question and your frustration.

The reason I came back (which sounds silly since I've only been playing a year) is X-Wing. I love setting dials, I love putting out the templates and moving the ships. I love the strategy. We played our first game in a few months the other day and half way thru, as my Kylo driven Tie Silencer and two Attack shuttles (mistakes continue to be made) were being shot to pieces, I looked at my son and said, "you know what? I love this game!" And I do love it!

As a complete newbie, I guess my advice might be to pick up a couple more X Wings if you are able and just fly rebels against rebels for a while. Identical lists and see if you still aren't enjoying the game. It might just not be your thing.


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Bryan Becker
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As Richard said, it is hard to be specific without knowing what you were were flying, but I feel like you may have made a mistake in your lists. It is very difficult to put 3 rebel ships on the table for the same cost as 3 TIEs. The Empire's advantage is either in numbers, or in maneuverability. 2 Standard TIE fighters are roughly equivalent to 1 X-wing (which is why that is what the starter set comes with) But your typical Empire list is either a swarm (6 - 8 TIE Fighters or other cheap ships) or a small group of 3 aces (something like Darth Vader in a TIE Advance, The Inquisitor in a TIE Advanced Prototype and Quickdraw in a TIE /sf). Where as the typical Rebel list is only 2 or 3 ships. A rebel "swarm" is usually only 4 ships as their point cost makes it difficult to get more than 4 on the board.

The Imperial ships are generally much more maneuverable. Not many rebel ships have the evade action where it is standard on most Imperial ships. Imperial ships also are more likely to have barrel roll and boost.

So if you are playing a swarm, overwhelm your opponent with numbers. Fly in formation.. you should mentally think of your ships not as 6 or 8 individual ships, but as 2 squads with 3 or 4 ships in each with then all getting the same maneuver every round. Then all firing on the same target. You will lose ships getting 1 shotted, but it is only a small part of the formation and the remaining ships should carry you through. Or Play aces, and play defensively. Use your superior Pilot skill to move last and use your superior positioning ability to make sure your opponent can't hit you, then strike when you have the advantage.

A few things you can do right away to really even things out. First change your point scale. If you only have 3 TIEs (I'm taking that to mean 3 standard TIE fighters or TIE/fo ships) try playing with a 50 point limit. This means the rebel player will be limited to 2 fairly basic fighters, or 1 good fighter and one stripped down rookies while the Imperial player should be able to kit out 3 pretty decent fighters. IF you were playing with a 100 point scale the rebel player could easily field 3 great fighters while the Empire player was probably loading everything in the garage on their ships just to get up to that point. You should be building your lists with smart choices, not just putting the most expensive stuff on. Also use a list builder http://xwing-builder.co.uk/build which will give you access to all of the upgrades that are available. Modifications like Autothrusters, Light Weight Frame, and the TIE/x1 that you may not have, can really help the Empire (of course it also give the rebel player more choices too!) And finally get the Empire a new ship or 2. Something big like a Decimator will immediately put the Imperial player on level ground with the rebels. TIE Defenders are also great ships, but you should either get a Imperial Veterans pack or make sure you are using the list builder because the titles for the Defenders are what really help them pack a punch. If you don't want to spend $30, a single TIE Defender, Inquisitor's TIE (aka the TIE Advanced Prototype) or TIE/sf are each only $15 and will also give the Empire a much needed boost.
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Jason Bush
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I expect, with what you have, your be hard pressed to make the good guys balanced
 
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Xander Fulton
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Also: as this came up in another thread recently, you are playing with asteroids, right?

The game is balanced for the Imperials under the assumption they have asteroids to hide behind/around. The superior dial (thus 'maneuverability') of the TIE Fighters only matters when there are things you need to maneuver around. Without asteroids, the game cannot be balanced for 'arc dodgers' (which is what most Imperials are).
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thespaceinvader -
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If anything, the balance in the early game was the other way - they overpriced x wings slightly because they felt that 5 x wings would be too powerful against 8 TIES (probably correctly at the time).

The balance of the game mostly assumes you're playing with quite a substantial collection, and you and your opponent are making lists at roughly the same level of optimisation. The gap between the top tier and the bottom is vast in this game.

Scum isn't remotely another game. It's another faction in this game.
 
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Henry Allen
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meewarwoowoo wrote:
the two sides were equal on points to create a balance.


This might be where you went wrong. If you have to load up some ships with upgrades to balance things out, you were not necessarily making balanced squads. The game isn't designed such that you can apply any combination of upgrades and end up with play balance. Part of the game is figuring out the best combination of upgrades for the points available, for particular ships and pilots, and for the composition of the squad the ship will fly with.

I bet if you share your expansion packs owned and/or the squads you were flying, folks here can offer some advice on how to strengthen the Imperials or weaken the rebels to make balanced squads that will be more fun to play. For starters, if you are playing with less than 100 points and have R2D2, I'd probably drop him (or get enough ships to play effecient 100 point lists). I found him to be a but rough to play against with smaller squads.
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Minot
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meewarwoowoo wrote:
I own a small set of X-Wing (Three TIES, Three Rebs) and it came out for a play last night. I think it was our fourth or fifth play and the two sides were equal on points to create a balance


I am curious how you were doing that. While not impossible, it is very difficult to create a 3x Tie squadron (assuming 2x of those are either Ties or Tie f/os from the starter) that is competitive against 3x Rebel ships, at least using 100 point squads.

At least for the early waves (which is all I own), the Rebels are sort of designed to fight at a 3:2 or even 2:1 disadvantage, numerically, and still be competitive.
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Jason Bush
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NimitsTexan wrote:
meewarwoowoo wrote:
I own a small set of X-Wing (Three TIES, Three Rebs) and it came out for a play last night. I think it was our fourth or fifth play and the two sides were equal on points to create a balance


I am curious how you were doing that. While not impossible, it is very difficult to create a 3x Tie squadron (assuming 2x of those are either Ties or Tie f/os from the starter) that is competitive against 3x Rebel ships, at least using 100 point squads.

At least for the early waves (which is all I own), the Rebels are sort of designed to fight at a 3:2 or even 2:1 disadvantage, numerically, and still be competitive.


This. All day long.
 
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Joseph Cowlishaw
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Agreed. If a TIE fighter and an X-wing are the same points cost, something wierd's going on because the TIE fighter is by default about half the price (X-wing Rookie Pilot 21, TIE Fighter Academy Pilot 12).
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Troy Hughes
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I think most people play "your points versus my points" games. But scenario games are my* favorite. Even the six scenarios that come with the core game are fun - and there's a lot of official and fan-made scenarios out there now.

Even a simple "scenario" based around an unusual set-up can make a huge difference in a game. Got a model of a space station (like Star Trek's DS-9)? Plop it down in the middle of the table and treat it as an obstacle that provides a defense bonus if fired through and as a ship if collided with.

And the sky's the limit from there - add in weapon upgrade cards to the station and come up with rules for destroying them. Then the mission objective is for one side to destroy all the base's weapons and the other side to defend the station. See how long it takes to win (or lose) and then switch sides. Or just come up with a different scenario!

(And if you don't have a DS-9 model, grab a shiny metal pasta strainer and glue some toy parts to it. Just don't use your SO's favorite kitchen utensils... Trust me on this.)

*For reference - I'm a 52-year-old kid who loves playing with my toy spaceships.
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