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Twilight Imperium: Fourth Edition» Forums » General

Subject: Winnu...buff em? rss

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Adam Rogers
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Has it been long enough to suggest that the Winnu need some love?
I feel like they are the weakest race and their path to victory is solely reliant on Mecatol control. And well there are just races that do that way better.

Thinking about house ruling them a bit just to help them feel more competitive.

Suggestion:

Starting units: +2 Infantry +1 Dreadnaught
Racial: Give back : You can always add the influence values of your homeworld to votes(original Passive).

I think if they could have better control of the agenda phase it might make them kind of fun to play. Even if they don't have Mecatol they could still influence the galaxy.

I don't know really just spit balling, anyone else got some ideas to help improve them and keep their theme somewhat relevant?

What about also having something that states: 'Winnu can claim objectives if they control their Home system or Mecatol' ?

Cause lets be honest most of the games with them your Home system is not protected at all.
 
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Joshua Schutte
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Let the spacedock(for taking Rex) appear before the production step of the turn they take Rex (so they can build right away with it). Let them score objectives using Rex or Homeworld, instead of their homeworld. They could use 2 more infantry and maybe a cruiser or destroyer to start. I think a dreadnaught might be too much.
 
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PK Levine
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Here's how we buff them, along with a few other minor house rules:

http://mygurps.com/pmwiki.php?n=Main.TwilightImperium

Short version:

1. They start with one extra carrier and two extra infantry.

2. New ability: "Spies on Mecatol: When another player removes the Custodian token from Mecatol Rex, gain any one technology that player has or gain four trade goods."

3. New ability: "Second Home: You may score public objectives while you control Winnu or Mecatol Rex."
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Casey Harmon
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What if they just start with Gravity Drive instead of any one base tech?

 
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Federico C.
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MollyMae wrote:
What if they just start with Gravity Drive instead of any one base tech?



1) it’d ruin starting tech ‘elegance’ (there are no duplicates currently).

2) it’d nerf them (no sarween option)

3) overextending a weak fleet and preventing additional build at the same time is really NOT a good idea

Way i did it, was simply by adding them what they lack - counterbalance.

‘Blood Ties: players do not have to pay Influence to remove the Custodian Token from Mecatol Rex. Whenever a player takes control of Mecatol Rex from you or collects the Custodian token, you can take one of their promissory notes of your choice from their hand.’

This still leaves them with their fleet problem and their vulnerability, does not ater their gameplay too much, and keeps them as a mid-low power narrow race, BUT ensures that opponents have something to lose when taking MR from them.

Try it.

Ps. There’s also some editing/streamlining of Lazax Gate, but the race change itself is the main part of it. It plays the same role as Master of Trade does for Hacan, avoiding an easy shutdown.
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F. Alvin Truell
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pkitty wrote:
Here's how we buff them, along with a few other minor house rules:

http://mygurps.com/pmwiki.php?n=Main.TwilightImperium

Short version:

1. They start with one extra carrier and two extra infantry.

2. New ability: "Spies on Mecatol: When another player removes the Custodian token from Mecatol Rex, gain any one technology that player has or gain four trade goods."

3. New ability: "Second Home: You may score public objectives while you control Winnu or Mecatol Rex."


Me and a buddy were just discussing this earlier today, we both agreed that giving them an extra carrier and two infantry at the start would help. I like that Second Home ability as well, makes thematic sense to me.
 
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Federico C.
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mystiqblackcat wrote:
Me and a buddy were just discussing this earlier today, we both agreed that giving them an extra carrier and two infantry at the start would help. I like that Second Home ability as well, makes thematic sense to me.


Dunno. In their current state, Winnu is very much like a version of Hacan that says ‘you cannot use the secondary of Trade’. Think about it. Your gameplay would focus on getting Trade, but everyone could counter you by taking it themselves - and reaping the benefits.

You can give them all the fleet you want, but people can still shut them down very easily, and to no cost to themselves. If you are going to alter Winnu, you have to give them counterbalance.
 
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Loose Cannon
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So, we deal out two races. And choose 1.
With that, would anybody pick Winnu, over all the other races. ?

Seriously. My first game, I was the Winnu. And lost badly. Felt, I had No Racial power.

Two other times, being dealt Winnu, I simply chose the other races. Cause anything was better than being forced to attempt Mecatol first, thus gaining the lead, and making myself a target for the rest of the game.
 
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J Kaemmer
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SlimJim wrote:
So, we deal out two races. And choose 1.
With that, would anybody pick Winnu, over all the other races. ?

Seriously. My first game, I was the Winnu. And lost badly. Felt, I had No Racial power.

Two other times, being dealt Winnu, I simply chose the other races. Cause anything was better than being forced to attempt Mecatol first, thus gaining the lead, and making myself a target for the rest of the game.


Well if you play by the rules as written, you pick speaker forst and THEN have a choice of any race starting with the speaker... who also ts first SC pick. As Speaker you could guarantee a Winnu with Warfare round 1 for a better expansion and high likelihood of Mecatol without relying on getting lucky with tech or AC shenanigans.

Add onto that starting Sarween instead of AMD for better utility and a fast track to Hegemonic Trade Policy and it could get scary for folks.

Guaranteeing an early point with little to no setup is no laughing matter. After which, opponents are forced to hate draft Imperial on you, which just leaves better SC for you.
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Christoph Yasutake
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I think the easiest way to buff the Winnu is simply to amend the 'typo' on their race sheet:
Their starting units should include 1 flagship
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Brian Petersen
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Cue Sol sending advanced fighters at a flagship that rolls 0 dice.
 
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Adam Rogers
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If your worried about counter balance, they already have one built in. All of their abilities rely on Mecatol. That's their biggest flaw, that's why I suggested they keep their automatic 4 votes so they can really influence the Agenda Phase.

This would keep on theme, and force tougher decisions from the table as to how much influence certain agenda's are really worth, or if they want to befriend the Winnu to ensure they don't screw them in the agenda phase.

Winnu is one of those races that has to spread thin at the start to even get their strategy going, because if they don't get to Mecatol first, they will probably never get it.
 
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Theo Mags
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It seems Winnu needs a boost or two in a number of directions, as they start behind from the outset in a number of ways and if early MR capture doesnt become a reality they are in real trouble even staying with the pack..

I personally think that just buffing their starting techs to be in line with what they recieved in TI3 would be enough of a boost for their game, especially early game. ie one blue green yellow.

Sarween for extra resource build (essential for first round fleet build), Neural for that much needed X factor that comes with multiple action cards, and antimass moving them 1 tech from grav drive.

This still keeps them 2 techs away from carrier/dread and cruiser IIs meaning getting to MR is still a challenge but providing them many more options in doing so.

Furthermore while they still start weak in units, the boost in techs means they are at least ahead of the pack in regards to tech objectives(big boost here), and also providing a number of combo unit upgrade options to keep their fleets very competitive. Advanced fighters and carrier II in 3 techs, Dread II's in 4.

One of the things I really enjoyed with Winnu TI3 was tech'ing to Type4/adv fighters, one of the very few races who could get there by the mid game comfortably. Would love to see them keeping this
 
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Mike Badlose
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Well if you play by the rules as written, you pick speaker forst and THEN have a choice of any race starting with the speaker... who also ts first SC pick. As Speaker you could guarantee a Winnu with Warfare round 1 for a better expansion and high likelihood of Mecatol without relying on getting lucky with tech or AC shenanigans.

Add onto that starting Sarween instead of AMD for better utility and a fast track to Hegemonic Trade Policy and it could get scary for folks.

Guaranteeing an early point with little to no setup is no laughing matter. After which, opponents are forced to hate draft Imperial on you, which just leaves better SC for you.


With only one cruiser and one carrier, how would Warfare help get them to MC on the first turn? Even if they pick antimass as their starting tech and then use the primary on tech to get gravity drive they lack the resources to buy advanced carriers. They have no better chance at reaching MC on the first turn than any other race. They are THE most difficult race to play as they need so much to go right the first few turns.
 
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J Kaemmer
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mikebadlose wrote:
Quote:
Well if you play by the rules as written, you pick speaker forst and THEN have a choice of any race starting with the speaker... who also ts first SC pick. As Speaker you could guarantee a Winnu with Warfare round 1 for a better expansion and high likelihood of Mecatol without relying on getting lucky with tech or AC shenanigans.

Add onto that starting Sarween instead of AMD for better utility and a fast track to Hegemonic Trade Policy and it could get scary for folks.

Guaranteeing an early point with little to no setup is no laughing matter. After which, opponents are forced to hate draft Imperial on you, which just leaves better SC for you.


With only one cruiser and one carrier, how would Warfare help get them to MC on the first turn? Even if they pick antimass as their starting tech and then use the primary on tech to get gravity drive they lack the resources to buy advanced carriers. They have no better chance at reaching MC on the first turn than any other race. They are THE most difficult race to play as they need so much to go right the first few turns.


Oh I didn't say they could do it in round one... though there is a thread around here somewhere about how a convoluted scenario could result in it. The idea is you take Warfare, move right up to the edge of MR and pray for low intitiative the next round. Unless somebody else has BOTH gravity drive AND 6 influence to burn by the end of round 1 they probably can't stop you.

Jol-Nar is the only real consistent threat to beat a Speaker-Winnu to MR, because they start with 5 Influence and can easily get Gravity Drive. The second threat is Creuss, but they need to pick up a fat load of influence, first.

Otherwise only the 4 races who start with AMD have a reasonable shot at beating you there (Saar, Sol, Hacan, and Barony.) but they would need to somehow Tech in the first round AND claim enough planets to afford 6 influence (which is quite a lot to find outside Arinam and Meer) AND get a lower initiative SC.

I suppose someone could take the Tech SC and be allowed to refresh their commodities and trade with Hacan to double tech in the first round... but that would leave them pretty weak in the early parts of the game, and is very irresponsible of the Trade SC owner.
 
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Federico C.
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Abednigo wrote:
If your worried about counter balance, they already have one built in. All of their abilities rely on Mecatol. That's their biggest flaw, that's why I suggested they keep their automatic 4 votes so they can really influence the Agenda Phase.

This would keep on theme, and force tougher decisions from the table as to how much influence certain agenda's are really worth, or if they want to befriend the Winnu to ensure they don't screw them in the agenda phase.

Winnu is one of those races that has to spread thin at the start to even get their strategy going, because if they don't get to Mecatol first, they will probably never get it.


...that’s not counterbalance, that’s the thing that needs to be counterbalanced. You are highlighting the flaw that nobody addresses, and the reason all the starting fleet or tech in the world won’t solve much.

Everything revolves on Mecatol. What happens if you lose Mecatol?

If the answer is ‘you’re screwed’, then it doesn’t matter if you have three carriers or four techs. You’re still screwed.
 
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Martin Hendry
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For Creuss to get to Mecatol on turn one they need Warfare and either Arinam/Meer+Diplomacy or an even trade of all their commodities with their home system. Not that hard, to be honest. Not going to happen very often, but it's doable.
 
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