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Subject: Death Guard used in SH rss

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MintyTheCat Cat
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Hello all,
following on from Mark's and the SH Campaign book's suggestion to use Chaos Marines to add a bit of variety to SH games I have decided to put some thought into it, get the models but then the question is of balancing and such. From what I can tell the Chaos Marines do look to be quite powerful in terms of weapons.

Has anyone else tried some games and what rules did you use? I have a table of all the squad point ratings for every mission that I'll use to work out how much each Chaos squad should be to make it relatively fair.

Cheers.

(*) As we develop rules for the Deathguard I'll put them at the top of this thread.

[Rules]

[Combi-Bolter]

1D6, kills a Blood-Angel Terminator on 6.
Overwatch: yes, shooting distance 12 tiles.
Marine phase shooting distance: unlimited.
AP to fire = 1

[Combi-Flamer]

Smaller one tile flamer marker (as found in 2ED Space-Hulk).
Kills a Blood-Angel Terminator >3.
Overwatch: no.
Marine phase shooting distance: 6 tiles (Heavy-Flamer/2 = 12/2=6).
AP to fire = 1
ToDo: how many shots per load does it have?

[Balesword & Bubotic Axe]

I've simplified these two hand weapons and will assume that they are of the same value.

It's a Plague-Weapon so it re-rolls on D6=1.
1D6, gives the user a +1 on melee attacks (akin to a Blood-Angel Sargeant using a Power-Sword).
AP to use = 1

[Flail of Corruption]

3D6, take the highest D6 from the 3D6 as the result for melee attacks.
AP to use = 1

[Plague-Spewer]

Essentially a Heavy-Flamer that doesn't require reloads (a Heavy-Flamer gets 6 shots per load).
Have it slightly less powerful than the Heavy-Flamer and will kill on >2 score on a D6 target (H/F would be 1+).
Template same size as used by the Heavy-Flamer for 3ED Space-Hulk.
Max distance = 12 tiles.
AP to fire = 2.

[Reaper-Autocannon]

Not as powerful as the Assault-Cannon but doesn't overheat or require reloads.
Twin-Linked so reroll if necessary once.
1D6, kill on 5+
AP to fire = 2.

[Blight-Launcher]

ToDo: need to determine how this weapon will function.

It's a Plague-Weapon so it re-rolls on D6=1.
Leaves toxic slime in the tiles that it fires at that affects human Marines but not Blightlords: ToDo: how will it affect human Marines?
AP to fire = 1 or 2 - ToDo: not sure yet.


----- Add other weapons -------
 
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Robin
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There were rules for Chaos ("Traitor") Marines in 1st edition Space Hulk, published in White Dwarf and one of the expansions. They should translate easily enough to 4e. PDFs are doing the rounds.
 
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MintyTheCat Cat
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robinjohnson wrote:
There were rules for Chaos ("Traitor") Marines in 1st edition Space Hulk, published in White Dwarf and one of the expansions. They should translate easily enough to 4e. PDFs are doing the rounds.

Yes, I have the rules here. However, they don't cover the new weapons, namely:

Blight-Launcher
Reaper Autocannon
Plague Spewer
Bubotic Axe
Balesword
Flail of Corruption
Man-Reaper

It looks like (I ordered the Death Guard Codex but it hasn't arrived yet so I have to guess ) the Plague-Spewer is the Heavy-Flamer and the Blight-Launcher is a Heavy-Plasma.

I've arranged for 9 different Death-Guard miniatures to cover the weapon options.

Anyone got any ideas? I like the idea of pitting a stronger and different opponent for the Human player but not to make it impossible all the same
 
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Mark
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Terminators come on 40mm bases. Those overflow the SH squares. For that reason, I put my Deathwing Termies on 32mm bases. But, I'm building a Death Guard army for 40K, so they must use the bases they come with. Besides, the models (and the fluff) have DG Termies as big and bulky due to their Nurgle's Rot, compared to other Termies. Just knocking around ideas, what if DG Termies have to "respect the bases" and can't occupy adjacent squares. Except maybe for setup (it's a Boarding Torpedo thing?). Being forced to spread out would be a tactical nuisance penalty to offset advantages. Corner-to-corner would still be OK.
 
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MintyTheCat Cat
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Yes, but how would the new DG weapons be translated into rules and such for SH games?

Also, I was thinking of bringing in a Tallyman and perhaps Typhus to use psychic powers and act akin to a Librarian. Also, giving morale akin to a Chaplain.

Once I get my hands on the DG Codex I'll see how the new DG weapons work and try to come up with rules for SH use.
 
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Robin
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Probably you want more crunchiness but for a quick solution you could categorise them loosely into "heavy" and "special" weapons like the recent White Dwarf rules for hybrids.
 
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Mark
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First impressions (admittedly derivative from ancient fan rules, and rough comparisons to regular weapons).

Weapon...(Range, Dice, Kill, Notes)
Blight-Launcher...(Unlimited, 1D6, 3+, Area Affect)
Reaper Autocannon...(Unlimited, 2D6, 4+, No SF)
Plague Spewer...Heavy Flamer

In codex, melee weapons are all variations, with unique rules. Roughly compare to powerfist-ish. A colorful addition would be Plague Weapons re-roll ones, as in the codex.




 
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MintyTheCat Cat
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robinjohnson wrote:
Probably you want more crunchiness but for a quick solution you could categorise them loosely into "heavy" and "special" weapons like the recent White Dwarf rules for hybrids.

They're all pretty much Terminators though so they have heavier weapons than the Hybrids.

ZombieMark wrote:
First impressions (admittedly derivative from ancient fan rules, and rough comparisons to regular weapons).

Weapon...(Range, Dice, Kill, Notes)
Blight-Launcher...(Unlimited, 1D6, 3+, Area Affect)
Reaper Autocannon...(Unlimited, 2D6, 4+, No SF)
Plague Spewer...Heavy Flamer

In codex, melee weapons are all variations, with unique rules. Roughly compare to powerfist-ish. A colorful addition would be Plague Weapons re-roll ones, as in the codex.


It might be interesting to make the Plague-Spewer have a longer range than the 12 tiles for the Heavy-Flamer but keep the determination for kills the same - I'll have to look at the stats for both weapons once I get the DG Codex to read.

Blight-Launcher: what area effect should we use here?

Reaper-Autocannon: why not 3D6 and is it ammo limited like the Auto-Cannon?

For melee weapons: well if a Terminator Sargeant gets a bonus in hand-to-hand combat with a sword would we not allow the Death-Guard Terminators armed with such weapons some advantage?

I'm interested in the effects of having a Tallyman in proximity to some how improve the chances of the DG. This would be akin to having a Chaplain giving morale to troops. I need to think a little more about it.

I was also thinking of getting Typhus to be used as a sort of Librarian for the DG:

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Typhus

I'm quite interested to see how these DG will play in SH games as it'll be a bit different

Edit: also the Reaper-Autocannon I have down as being twin-linked. I remember thinking about this for Centurions some time ago. It would give the shooter another chance to kill but I forget how and why it would be so.

I'll get the weapon stats up for each of the DG weapons along side the Terminator weapons for us to compare them.
 
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Brian Hall
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ZombieMark wrote:
A colorful addition would be Plague Weapons re-roll ones, as in the codex.


I like that idea. Would it be too much, do you think, to add something akin to Disgustingly Resilient? Add a save for DG models if they're hit, and stay alive on a roll of 6?
 
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Mark
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ZombieMark wrote:
First impressions (admittedly derivative from ancient fan rules, and rough comparisons to regular weapons).

Weapon...(Range, Dice, Kill, Notes)
Blight-Launcher...(Unlimited, 1D6, 3+, Area Affect)
Reaper Autocannon...(Unlimited, 2D6, 4+, No SF)
Plague Spewer...Heavy Flamer

In codex, melee weapons are all variations, with unique rules. Roughly compare to powerfist-ish. A colorful addition would be Plague Weapons re-roll ones, as in the codex.

I would emphasize I'm just knocking around ideas. Not writing rules. So, feel free to ignore anything I write.

Quote:
It might be interesting to make the Plague-Spewer have a longer range than the 12 tiles for the Heavy-Flamer but keep the determination for kills the same - I'll have to look at the stats for both weapons once I get the DG Codex to read.

I know I have you at a disadvantage till you get the Death Guard Codex. But the Plague Spewer has a 1" greater range than the Heavy Flamer (9' vs 8").

Quote:
Blight-Launcher: what area effect should we use here?

Borrowed the verbage from the Heavy Flamer rule. Area effect = Section.

Quote:
Reaper-Autocannon: why not 3D6 and is it ammo limited like the Auto-Cannon?

In 40K, compared to the Assault Cannon, the Reaper hits harder, but not as many shots. The suggested variation is probably statistically nearly the same. I figured since the Reaper doesn't shoot as much, it would be less likely to run out of ammo, and so avoid the Assault Cannon's extensive reload rules. Might be a little too good without them.

Quote:
For melee weapons: well if a Terminator Sargeant gets a bonus in hand-to-hand combat with a sword would we not allow the Death-Guard Terminators armed with such weapons some advantage?

Sure. A couple of DG melee weapons are quite impressive. Just didn't so the maths.

Quote:
I'm interested in the effects of having a Tallyman in proximity to some how improve the chances of the DG. This would be akin to having a Chaplain giving morale to troops. I need to think a little more about it.

Tallyman is more of an efficiency booster than a Chaplain. Though it's a narrow distinction. The Plague Bell guy is Chaplinesque. In the Codex, the Tallyman allows for recovering spent Command Points. A cool boost in Space Hulk would be for him to allow two CP counters be drawn at the same time, and discard the lower one. That's better than draw one, maybe discard, and then draw another.

Quote:
I was also thinking of getting Typhus to be used as a sort of Librarian for the DG:

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Typhus

I'm quite interested to see how these DG will play in SH games as it'll be a bit different

If you go the Named Character route, you are on your own. All I can say is, "Be careful what you wish for."


alienux wrote:
ZombieMark wrote:
A colorful addition would be Plague Weapons re-roll ones, as in the codex.


I like that idea. Would it be too much, do you think, to add something akin to Disgustingly Resilient? Add a save for DG models if they're hit, and stay alive on a roll of 6?

Your Disgusting Resilient idea is really pretty spiffy.
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MintyTheCat Cat
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Hi there, Mark - some good ideas

ZombieMark wrote:
ZombieMark wrote:
First impressions (admittedly derivative from ancient fan rules, and rough comparisons to regular weapons).

Weapon...(Range, Dice, Kill, Notes)
Blight-Launcher...(Unlimited, 1D6, 3+, Area Affect)
Reaper Autocannon...(Unlimited, 2D6, 4+, No SF)
Plague Spewer...Heavy Flamer

In codex, melee weapons are all variations, with unique rules. Roughly compare to powerfist-ish. A colorful addition would be Plague Weapons re-roll ones, as in the codex.
I would emphasize I'm just knocking around ideas. Not writing rules. So, feel free to ignore anything I write.


Yes, we need to throw ideas around and get the ball rolling and it looks like a few of us are also interested in adding a bit of chaos to the SH mix

Quote:
It might be interesting to make the Plague-Spewer have a longer range than the 12 tiles for the Heavy-Flamer but keep the determination for kills the same - I'll have to look at the stats for both weapons once I get the DG Codex to read.
I know I have you at a disadvantage till you get the Death Guard Codex. But the Plague Spewer has a 1" greater range than the Heavy Flamer (9' vs 8").


Ah, in that case then there's no point in adding one extra tile space for range We'll have to get the stats out and see if there's any strength but it looks like it's just the 'Heavy-Flamer' - I say 'just' but you know what I mean

Quote:
Blight-Launcher: what area effect should we use here?

Borrowed the verbage from the Heavy Flamer rule. Area effect = Section.


Got you.

Quote:
Reaper-Autocannon: why not 3D6 and is it ammo limited like the Auto-Cannon?

In 40K, compared to the Assault Cannon, the Reaper hits harder, but not as many shots. The suggested variation is probably statistically nearly the same. I figured since the Reaper doesn't shoot as much, it would be less likely to run out of ammo, and so avoid the Assault Cannon's extensive reload rules. Might be a little too good without them.
[/q]

So if the AC kills on a 5+ on any of the 3D6 what would the Reaper-AC use do you feel would be suitable? I am lacking the Codex as yet so you'll have to be my ears and eyes

Quote:
For melee weapons: well if a Terminator Sargeant gets a bonus in hand-to-hand combat with a sword would we not allow the Death-Guard Terminators armed with such weapons some advantage?
Sure. A couple of DG melee weapons are quite impressive. Just didn't so the maths.


That Flail looks tasty and I fancy having at least one DG Terminator with a Flail for close-up, heart-to-heart action

Quote:
I'm interested in the effects of having a Tallyman in proximity to some how improve the chances of the DG. This would be akin to having a Chaplain giving morale to troops. I need to think a little more about it.
Tallyman is more of an efficiency booster than a Chaplain. Though it's a narrow distinction. The Plague Bell guy is Chaplinesque. In the Codex, the Tallyman allows for recovering spent Command Points. A cool boost in Space Hulk would be for him to allow two CP counters be drawn at the same time, and discard the lower one. That's better than draw one, maybe discard, and then draw another.

I wasn't aware of the Bell guy but just had a look at him and I agree with you: he's the Chaplain like guy for the DG. I might get them both to lend more strategic variety to the games.
Now that's interesting: double your chances with the Tallyman for CP - nice


Quote:
I was also thinking of getting Typhus to be used as a sort of Librarian for the DG:

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Typhus

I'm quite interested to see how these DG will play in SH games as it'll be a bit different
If you go the Named Character route, you are on your own. All I can say is, "Be careful what you wish for."


Is Typhus a higher pointer than the Bell guy? I would want to have one of them for Psychic powers and such at the very least.

alienux wrote:
ZombieMark wrote:
A colorful addition would be Plague Weapons re-roll ones, as in the codex.


I like that idea. Would it be too much, do you think, to add something akin to Disgustingly Resilient? Add a save for DG models if they're hit, and stay alive on a roll of 6?

Your Disgusting Resilient idea is really pretty spiffy.[/q]

It is just too bad that we have 6D and cannot roll 7s
 
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Mark
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Cross-posted to put my foot where my mouth is.


Delightfully disgusting. They even look good when painted by the likes of me.
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MintyTheCat Cat
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They do look slimey and evil, Mark Are you going to paint Felthius' ball in his hand suitably slimey too?

I'm going to pay for a painting comission to have my DG painted. Also, I should really show you all the work that a friend of mine did on my Blood-Angels and have a group model photo

I've been looking through things (still not got my DG Codex yet ) and worked out a point wise equal set of teams:

[Blood-Angels]

[Squad 1] Sargeant, 3xStorm-Bolter, Auto-Cannon.
[Squad 2] Sargeant, 3xStorm-Bolter, Heavy-Flamer.

10 BA

[Death-Guard]

Lord of Contagion, Plague-Spewer, Reaper Auto-Cannon, 5xBlightlords

8 DG

That equals out points wise to 430. I just need to work out rules now for all the exotic new members. To my mind the Lord of Contagion is going to need to be just a little more resilient that a BA Sargeant and since there's only one LOC per group of 4 to 9 Blightlords he needs to last longer in combat and such.

If we work out some rules through trying things out and discussion then I'll edit the first post in this thread and maybe make a PDF once things are a bit further on

Cheers.
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Brian Hall
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ZombieMark wrote:
Cross-posted to put my foot where my mouth is.


Delightfully disgusting. They even look good when painted by the likes of me.


Those look great. I especially like the creepy white face on the model 2nd from the left.
 
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Mark
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That's Lord Felthius. I guess he really enjoys his work.

After looking at this picture, I went back and gave him some black dots for eyeballs. I hate painting eyes.
 
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Brian Hall
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ZombieMark wrote:
I hate painting eyes.


Man, I do too. I usually use a toothpick and a little wash to try to fill them in without looking cartoonish, but they're not my most favoritist thing to paint.
 
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Mark
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Truth is, I don't love painting marines (regular, or terminator). Too much featureless armor. Too clean. Does not take to my beloved dipping-in-water-based-woodstain all that well. But, Death Guard are anything but clean and featureless. Perfect for my foul methods.
 
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J D
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So I was just thinking, these guys are armed with combi-bolters instead of storm bolters. How do we represent that in the game?

One thought is to apply the Overkill rule to stombolters, and not to combi-bolters. Overkill is from 2nd edition, if you roll 2 kills, you apply the 2nd to an adjacent genestealer. I would assume if you have enemies with different target numbers, it would have to count as a kill for both the original target and the new one so no over killing hybrids to easily take out genestealers.

Regular marines get a little better, and deathguard marines make up for it with their disgustingly resilient rule. Of course you then need to selectively apply Overkill to a few other weapons, like plasma, and autocannons...maybe...
 
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MintyTheCat Cat
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Jacob Dryearth wrote:
So I was just thinking, these guys are armed with combi-bolters instead of storm bolters. How do we represent that in the game?

One thought is to apply the Overkill rule to stombolters, and not to combi-bolters. Overkill is from 2nd edition, if you roll 2 kills, you apply the 2nd to an adjacent genestealer. I would assume if you have enemies with different target numbers, it would have to count as a kill for both the original target and the new one so no over killing hybrids to easily take out genestealers.

Regular marines get a little better, and deathguard marines make up for it with their disgustingly resilient rule. Of course you then need to selectively apply Overkill to a few other weapons, like plasma, and autocannons...maybe...

Well, if they have a Combi-Plasma then allow them to use either weapon. So 1D6 for the Bolter and then the usual plasma rules applied.

Yes, the overkill would be applicable as it could affect the blip/guy behind the target but given that plasma are meant to have an effect on a section this kind of makes sense too. I've never really been clear on the use of Plasma weapons to be honest though.

I've been looking at the rules for the DG in the Codex and part of what I saw was the 'Disgustingly Resilient'. I haven't really sat down and worked out what would make sense fromt he Codex and then ported across to SH as yet but I'm happy to hear any ideas from other SH'ers as to what makes sense. I did want to make the Lord of Contagion a heavier hitter than a standard Terminator Sargeant given that you don't need two LOGs for a squad of up to 19 I think Blightlords but I need to work out the rules and probabilities for the weapons and abilities of the LOG first.
 
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MintyTheCat Cat
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I am trying to work out rules for the Blightlords' weapons.
Does anyone have any ideas for the Blight-Launcher?

One idea that I had was to make the tiles that the weapon aims at leave behind toxic slime that would have some kind of effect on the human marines and have it so that the toxic slime does not leave once it has been deposited on the tile. The toxic slime would have no effect on the Chaos Marines though.
 
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MintyTheCat Cat
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I've begun to add in some 'working rules' for using Blightlord weaponry but this is all a work in progress and relaly needs play-testers and feedback
 
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