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Zombicide: Green Horde» Forums » Rules

Subject: Zombies Movement Doubt rss

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Ff sh
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In the picture attached, coming from a video publised in youtube playing the Quest 0, it is now the zombies phase:

There are two potential objectives for the zombies with 2 noises each (2 survivors)

The up-left one is reachable at 4 movements, and the up-right reachable at 5.

The 2 zombies choose the shortest way, that is the two survivors up-left.

But due to the ledge they cannot move straight.

What do they do?
1) They stuck
2) As there is an alternative way to the objective, they move right.

(Note) In the video from where I took the picture they stand still.

I think these type of situations (not the first time that appear in this forum) should be clarified. The rules are not clear in this respect:


“” 2: Orc Zombies move 1 Zone toward their destination Zone by taking the shortest available path.
In case there are no open paths to the noisiest Zone, Zombies move toward it as if all doors were open, though locked doors still stop them””


In this case the zombies choose the shortest path, but they cannot move as there is a ledge in the shortest path, and my doubtis, as there are alternate ways to reach the objective, but longer, if the zombies should move right or stand still




 
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Thilo M.
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They choose the shortest way they can actually use. Think of it this way - they don’t try to walk through a building either.
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Firstly, they will try to seek out both sets of Survivors as you never care about distance when determining target Zones.

They then try to to determine the shortest path to the Survivors and discover there is absolutely no path and thus the designers were stupid when they set up this map. The Zombies will stand still. Even the Zombies that spawn at the spawn Zone should stand still, as there is no path to any target Zone.

For the sake of actually describing what would happen on a properly designed map, let's assume that there is a bank in front of that hedge above the Zombies.

Now with that Bank, the Zombies on the left would need to calculate shortest route to both sets of Survivors. This route goes straight up for both shortest paths, so the Zombies won't end up splitting. The Zombies on the right can see some Survivors, so they only choose that target Zone. They find the shortest path, which starts off going left and is length 7, as they cannot climb the Ledge.

For another example, let's assume instead that both of the Ledges above the Zombie Zones are actually Banks. Then we get some differences. The group on the left again tries to get to both sets of Survivors. To get to the leftmost group, the only shortest path of length 4 starts off going up. To get to the rightmost pair of Survivors, they have two shortest paths, both of length 5, one going up then right and the other going right then up. This gives you two first steps and the pair of Zombies will split up so that one goes up and the other goes right. In this example, the Zombies on the right would only head up, as that's the shortest path to their only target.


Summarising how you determine paths, you follow this algorithm:

1: Figure out all the target Zones based only on noise and line of sight, not distance.

2: For each target Zone you found in step 1, calculate the shortest path/s taking into account blockages. If there is no path, try to find a path if you had considered the doors to be open.

3: For each path you found in step 2, look at the first Zone the Zombies move to on the path. Count up these first Zones.

4: For each Zone of step 3, split the Zombies equally to go into the different Zones, adding extras to compensate as necessary.
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Ff sh
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Thank you for your detailed explanation

I still have some doubts, as according of the principle of calculating the shortest path that you are decribing in in 2:


2: For each target Zone you found in step 1, calculate the shortest path/s taking into account blockages. If there is no path, try to find a path if you had considered the doors to be open.

By blockages, I understand hedges (water to terrain) and ledges. And I also understand that blockages are taken into consideration when selecting the shortest paths.

Then , in 3, you say that,for those shortest paths, you look at the first zone.

But, what happens if the first zone at the shortest path is not achievable (e.g. there is a ledge or a hedge form water to terrain)?? the zombies should:
a) stand still?
b) try to reach the noisest zone through another path, a longer one which has the first zone available?. In this case they do not follow the principle you described in 2, which is taking the shortest path to the noisest zone.

According to this rationale, that is, choosing the shortest path in the example of the instrubctions the shortest path is marked as a) in the attached picture, and as the first zone is not reachable the zombie should have had to stand still, instead of choosing a longer path (marked as b) in the attached picture)

And if, on the contrary, we follow the principle set in the instructions then, the two zombies of my first example, instead of standing still as going straight is not accesible because of the ledge when choosing the shortest path to noisest zone, should have chosen instead a longer path which has its first zone achievable, which is moving to the right.

Each time I think about this rule, I get more and more confused


Thanks in advance for advicing
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Ffsh wrote:
By blockages, I understand hedges (water to terrain) and ledges. And I also understand that blockages are taken into consideration when selecting the shortest paths.

A hedge could technically be on a Bank or a Ledge. The edge in the picture has both a Hedge and a Ledge.

By blockages, I meant closed doors and Ledges. THe Zombies will only look for paths they can actually follow. But if there is no such path, they'll try to look for a path as if all the doors are open, but they will still stop at a door if their path would go through a closed one.

Quote:
But, what happens if the first zone at the shrtest path is not achievable (e.g. there is a ledge or a hedge form water to terrain)?? the zombies should:
a) stand still?
b) try to reach the noisest zone through another path, a longer one which has the first zone available?. In this case they do not follow ther principle you described in 2, which is taking the shortest path to the noisest zone.

Neither. What I mean by taking them into account is that they do not consider that to be a path at all. That path's length is infinite. They find a different path they can actually travel along. That's why the Zombies on the right would head left first if the only Bank led through the Hedge. Although they can see people directly up from them, the shortest path to get to them takes them to the left first.

Quote:
According to this rationale, that is, choosing the shortest path in the example of the instrubctions the shortest path is marked as a) in the attached picture, and as the first zone is not reachable the zombie should have had to stand still, instead of choosing a longer path (marked as b) in the attached picture)

a) is not a path at all. b) is the shortest path. When I say to take the blockages into account I mean they do actually block the Zombies from taking that route.

Quote:
And,if we follow the principle set in the instructions then, the two zombies of my first example, instead of standing still as going straight is not accesible because of the ledge by choosing the shortest path to noisest zone, should have chosen instead a longer path which has its first zone achievable, which is moving to the right.

No, as there is no path that starts off going to the right. In fact, there is no path at all, even if we consider the doors to be open. That's why they stand still, as there is absolutely no path which moves them towards the Survivors.
 
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Ff sh
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I think I start understanding the principle.

Looking for shortest paths means: shortest available/feasible paths, without ledges or hedges (water to terrain)
In the case of my first example the issue is that due to the hedge/ledge on the left and the ledge on the right, zombies do not have any path at all (available/feasible) to the noisest zones and therefore they stand still.

But (and this is my thougt, of course) zombies only should think of their first move, they are not clever enough to see beyond, and be aware of the WHOLE path. According to the former, zombies on the left should have moved right, and zombies on the right should have moved left (first zone acccesible to the noisest point)
 
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Richard Letourneau

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I saw this video & commented on it. The players set up one of the tiles wrong. The bottom right tile should have been rotated 90 degrees clockwise. Then the waterways would have been connected.
 
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Ff sh
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That changes all,

In that case zombies on the right should move straight towards the survivors in line of sight, and zombies on the left should move right as they do have a path feasible to the noisest zone
Thanks!

I am sure this is not the first time this type of situations happen in the different quests

I still love GH a lot

And more challenges when the extra part arrives in June!!
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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For some reason, I assumed this was a made up quest, even though you said it was Quest 0. I should have tweaked, but somehow missed it.

You will find a few places in the Quests where a particular Zone or two is unreachable, but not ones where half the map is unreachable, thankfully.
 
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Ff sh
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But it was useful to better understand the zombies moving rules, and the meaning of “shortest paths considering blockages”
Now they are much clearer to me
Thank you!
 
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mikey waldorph
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Ffsh wrote:
I think I start understanding the principle.

Looking for shortest paths means: shortest available/feasible paths, without ledges or hedges (water to terrain)
In the case of my first example the issue is that due to the hedge/ledge on the left and the ledge on the right, zombies do not have any path at all (available/feasible) to the noisest zones and therefore they stand still.

But (and this is my thougt, of course) zombies only should think of their first move, they are not clever enough to see beyond, and be aware of the WHOLE path. According to the former, zombies on the left should have moved right, and zombies on the right should have moved left (first zone acccesible to the noisest point)


Hedges do not block zombies. Your first line should read

Quote:
Looking for shortest paths means: shortest available/feasible paths, without ledges (from water) or closed doors.


This is still not a complete definition but good enough for your example.
 
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Ff sh
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Good definition
The instructions are not clear enough on what is meant by “closest paths” to the noisest area
 
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