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Mage Knight Board Game: The Lost Legion Expansion» Forums » Rules

Subject: Know your Prey against blue City rss

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stephen anonymous
Canada
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I want to use Know your Prey (wolfhawk's skil) against a unit in a blue city that has 6 fire attack, to nullify the fire in its attack. Since the Blue city gives +2 attack to enemies with fire, but I have taken it away, will it still receive this +2 bonus)?
 
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Gene Selfish
Italy
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Personally, I'm inclined to think that city bonuses are awarded based on what is physically printed on the tokens, so I'd say that in your case they still apply. However, I don't think there's a definite answer on this subject so it could be ruled either way.
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Raphaël Langella
France
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It's discussed in the Q&A compendium (page 81).
The most common interpretation is that the enemy receives the bonus when it is revealed and that it cannot be removed afterward. As Gene, I'm leaning toward this interpretation, although there is indeed no definite answer.
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stephen anonymous
Canada
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Thanks both of you for your answers! Wish there was an official answer on this, but oh well. I appreciate your input on this.
 
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Stephen
Canada
Toronto
Ontario
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Note that if you did rule that removing fire from the unit in the blue city means it doesn't get the bonus, then removing fire from that unit in the red or green city would mean it should gain brutal or poison, respectively.
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Germany
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I remember a discussion about the defend ability in Shades of Tezla and one of the results was that the game always eagerly applies effects, with no memory of what happened when, etc. This was relevant for effects that reduce armour, to a minimum of one. If you later raise the armour again (with other effects), would the original effect apply in full now?

The answer was, as said, no. Whenever you apply an effect, you apply it as stated on the card, then you can discard that card and for all intents and purposes forget about it.

Now, the city cards are not exactly played and discarded, but it stands to reason that the intent is the same: There is one point in time, probably when you draw/reveal the tokens, where its effect is applied. And then you can forget about the card (and why you did or did not apply any bonus, etc.)

In addition to your question, people asked and discussed whether a possessed unit would retain its attack bonuses, etc.

And from my current understanding of the game, I would say yes there as well. The token was modified when it was revealed and that's it.
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Ben Kyo
Japan
Osaka
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Forward 1, Forward 2, Forward 3... siege attack 5?
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Why for this life there's no man smart enough, life's too short for learning every trick and bluff.
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I'm inclined to go with a "thematic" interpretation that the bonuses are gained and lost according to the token's current state. The blue city enhances elemental (magical) attacks, and the green city enhances physical attacks. Whatever attack actually takes place is what matters.

There are no equivalents to be drawn from other rulings, or similar timing effects, or at least none that I am aware of, so there really isn't anything to go on aside from personal preference (also, Wolfhawk could do with a little help).
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Germany
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Thematic arguments can go either way

The blue city is the one with the big mage tower, it probably contains mages / magic tokens which are stronger than usual. Doesn't mean that there is something enhancing their attacks in the city.

And I just gave you something to compare it to. I would think it odd that suddenly you have to remember why an attack or armour has the value it currently has, so future effects behave differently.

As far as helping Wolfhawk: I am not sure it helps if an attack becomes brutal or poisonous in other cities, when taking away the last element

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Ben Kyo
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Yeah, it was a mistake to mention "theme". That rarely goes anywhere, and I didn't intend to assert that my preference is any more or less thematic than anyone else's.

I was, however, implicitly arguing against your assertion that "the intent" of city cards is the same as that of deed/unit effects. There is no equivalent in terms of timing or ongoing effect that I can think of, so drawing parallels doesn't make any sense to me. Your example of armor changes is referencing a situation in which various effects are applied in an order chosen by the player, and resolved "in columns" in a single phase. City cards are revealed when a city is, tokens are unknown until you get adjacent to a city, and the bonus from a city lasts indefinitely until the city is conquered.

I also don't see what point you are making about "remember[ing] why an attack or armour has the value it currently has". I mean, I don't keep a running tally on paper or elsewhere of token attack values, so there is no additional working required either way when and if you enter the block phase and the enemy is still attacking. If anything, using the value on the token removes a step.
cityofsolitude wrote:
As far as helping Wolfhawk: I am not sure it helps if an attack becomes brutal or poisonous in other cities, when taking away the last element

I thin that situations in which you would use Know Your Prey specifically to remove an element (instead of any other use) and then not block (presumably to assign damage to physical resistant units?) are more niche than situations in which you would use Know Your Prey to benefit from removing an element and reducing attack. Again, though, this probably wasn't a sensible avenue of "argument" to open up, as it is a total derailment from rule interpretation. I only mentioned it because my point is that how you play Know Your Enemy with city card effects seems to me to be entirely down to personal preference.

To sum up, the skill is from an expansion that is not fully integrated with the base game, and I think there is nothing in the rules that we can draw on to come up with a "correct" interpretation.
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I was just referring to the defend discussion in the shades forums, but lets not get into that again I was arguing with a gut feeling that was the result of that discussion, I could explain my reasoning, but to what end.

It could certainly go either way! I am always thinking about Possess as well, where it can be important if the token retains its city bonus.

Applying the bonus when the token is revealed and then "forget" about the why and when, etc. would certainly be a simple solution. The obvious downside is that you DO have to remember that the token has modified values But from a rules perspective it might be easiest to just treat it as if it was printed that way from then on.

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