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Zombicide: Invader» Forums » General

Subject: Some musings on whether to back... rss

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Jim P
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This is mostly just thinking out-loud. It won't be relevant to lots of people, so don't feel obliged to read. That said, it may touch on issues that other undecideds are mulling over too, and on that basis, it may be helpful to share thoughts.

When they first announced this project, I took one look at the minis, and decided that I wasn't interested. I'm not a great fan of that style of alien, and wasn't all that excited about playing as a bunch of Space Marines.

I still kept a bit of an eye on the campaign though, and the longer things go on, the more torn I am.

For one thing, this game really looks like it will play very differently - the changes to targeting priority, doors, and concentrated fire all transform it from the very beginning. On top of that, having distinct types of survivor, a bigger difference between indoor/outdoor zones and the new extra activation rules all caught my interest.
There are also a good number of cool overcoats - although the continuing lack of a Firefly survivor is depressing.

Aside from the fact that Black Plague / Green Horde more or less fills a bookcase (which seriously calls into question whether I have the time, money, or space for a third Zombicide game), one of the big things putting me off is the sense that this campaign is moving very slowly -

1.5 weeks in, and we haven't hit the total that Green Horde managed by day 3. A lot of the incentive to back a CMON game rather than waiting for retail is the massive stack of extra goodies we get. Is this game likely to end up arriving with noticeably less plastic than other recent projects?

I'd be interested to know the thoughts of anyone else who is torn over whether to back for similar reasons.
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Marc Raps
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Mightyjim wrote:
A lot of the incentive to back a CMON game rather than waiting for retail is the massive stack of extra goodies we get. Is this game likely to end up arriving with noticeably less plastic than other recent projects?


I don't think you'll have to worry about that. I suspect CMON will adjust the gaps between stretch goals so they can roll out all the ones they have planned regardless of the end total.
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I think the campaign is floundering a little, at least by CMON/Zombicide standards.

I wonder if the two $15 survivor boxes were originally intended as stretch goals, and turned into fairly low-priced KSe addon boxes to help with funding. Their addons are usually attractive but these look awkward to me.

So yeah I think you’ll get a bit less than BP or GH, but then again the campaign’s still got awhile to go and their funding always goes bananas in the last 48.
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David
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I'm in the same boat; I backed day 1 because I'm quite a fan of most Sci-Fi.
The floundering of the campaign however, in addition to quite awful stretch goals (I find most of them to look awkward and clumsily designed) - except for the Marty McFly/Doc Brown/Rick Deckard stretch goals - have be starting to think of ducking out before I no longer can.
I wonder if this Zombicide campaign was under-planned and launched earlier than anticipated due to HATE not doing as well as they might have hoped?

I think the mechanics do look interesting, but I'm starting to think it might not be 'different enough' from BP/GH (and considering we haven't received stretch goals/expansions for GH yet, I totally feel your sentiment regarding another Zombicide game).

I'm still holding out for another boxed expansion (not character pack), and maybe a little more cohesiveness to the ideas they're churning out.
This honestly looks like the strewing together of ideas that were meant for their other recent games, or things that were come up with on the fly without planning. Not to mention the cease-and-desist order causing them to pull the Will-Smith 'Doc White' character (embarrassing!).
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At some point, (Green Horde) CMON will have saturated the market with Zombicide games. I think most people with one version will be more inclined to skip this one so I think its natural for this to not do as well. Really they need a new IP to fill the shoes of Zombicide because I think it's reaching the point where it isn;t going to fund like Black Plague and Green Horde each time.

But time will tell!

I know after BP and GH I am burnt out with additional Zombicide content!
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Dave J
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I think GH did “better” because it was a sequel to a wildly popular game and fantasy just seems to be more popular than sci-fi in general.

Also as you stated, there’s little need to have every version of zombicide. You’re now able to pick a theme you like best.

We also had a lower starting in pledge. GH price with the first expansion was 170 vs 150.

I think a unrealistic to assume ever Zombicide game will outperform the previous one.

Also there’s rumors of a revamped moderncide coming so some maybe holding out for that.
 
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Jim P
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Rumours / upcoming projects are a good point.

If they keep up the trick of announcing the next project in the final days of this KS, that could change my decision.
 
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Nathan Stiles
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Emphasis mine

Rapseflaps wrote:
Mightyjim wrote:
A lot of the incentive to back a CMON game rather than waiting for retail is the massive stack of extra goodies we get. Is this game likely to end up arriving with noticeably less plastic than other recent projects?


I don't think you'll have to worry about that. I suspect CMON will adjust the gaps between stretch goals so they can roll out all the ones they have planned regardless of the end total.


From a business stand point, I do not know how that would be feasible.
 
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I have it at a $1 pledge at the moment, just in case I decide to back it more fully or when the pledge manager opens; at present however I can see myself pulling out entirely.

As with other this one just hasn't grabbed me as strongly, in large part due to the enemies: part of the fun of Zombicide games is knowing that it's the vast unfeeling hordes of the undead that you are slaughtering (or being mobbed by). This just seems like xenocide. I'm also a bit put off by the alien designs: the core set aliens just seem uninspired in my opinion and the abomination certainly earns its name in more ways than one. Similarly, the stretch goals seem less entertaining/inspired than those of previous campaigns. Many it's just Adrian Smith's history with Games Workshop, but there's a very strong early 40k vibe flowing through the whole thing in my opinion, and I'm not certain that's what I'm after at the moment.

The rule changes and the way equipment handles seems interesting, but limiting the search options seems arbitrary and poorly conceived (even though I agree that searching needs to be modified).

Bleh, sorry for the stream of consciousness post: it's late here. Here's hoping something more interesting comes along in the stretch goals over the next few days.
 
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Brant Benoit
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SaintHax wrote:
Emphasis mine

Rapseflaps wrote:
Mightyjim wrote:
A lot of the incentive to back a CMON game rather than waiting for retail is the massive stack of extra goodies we get. Is this game likely to end up arriving with noticeably less plastic than other recent projects?


I don't think you'll have to worry about that. I suspect CMON will adjust the gaps between stretch goals so they can roll out all the ones they have planned regardless of the end total.


From a business stand point, I do not know how that would be feasible.


They have a really good plan and track record for this type of project.
Like Monoliths Batman, the stretch goals are already planned, and paid for.
They do have a certain funding goal to meet for that but it's likely a lot less than one might think.
We also have to recall that CMON is also a distributor, which makes getting their stuff to retail much more affordable. I wouldn't be surprised if the KS campaigns provide the capital for producing the game and paying staff and very little else unless the funding is huge.
I think where they make the big money is in retail, as they take the profits from being both the producer and distributor.

For a normal business it doesn't make sense. But when you're a company like CMON that can distribute to retail very cost-effectively, or if you decide not to do retail at all, it's possible. I think not going retail is the tougher one to manage though, as all of your eggs are in the single KS basket.

I'm sure they have it all planned out, and we'll see all the planned stretch goals at the end, regardless of funding levels.
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Nathan Stiles
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Ghool wrote:
They have a really good plan and track record for this type of project.
Like Monoliths Batman, the stretch goals are already planned, and paid for.


Monolith cut the second Red Hood mini holding magnums, 3rd Catwoman (crouched), and (so far) Spoiler. Let's be honest Ghool, without knowledge of what they have prepared for, we have no idea if every Zombicide game had additional stretch goals that never made it in the game. The only track record we know, is they offer a LOT of SGs, and I'd venture to say have set a benchmark for this sort of thing in KS games.
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Brant Benoit
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SaintHax wrote:
Ghool wrote:
They have a really good plan and track record for this type of project.
Like Monoliths Batman, the stretch goals are already planned, and paid for.


Monolith cut the second Red Hood mini holding magnums, 3rd Catwoman (crouched), and (so far) Spoiler. Let's be honest Ghool, without knowledge of what they have prepared for, we have no idea if every Zombicide game had additional stretch goals that never made it in the game. The only track record we know, is they offer a LOT of SGs, and I'd venture to say have set a benchmark for this sort of thing in KS games.


Agreed it's all speculation. But it's merely for discussions sake.
But, do you think multi-million dollar Kickstarters are gone into without at least 90% prepped and accounted for? I really don't think a company trading it's stocks would sell their bread and butter money maker on the fly without a solid plan of attack and marketing in place.

It's normal for corporations to have 100% planned and accounted for and how much they need to make. If they fly by the seat of their pants, investors will stay far, far away.
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Jim P
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I don't think anyone was suggesting that CMON goes into a Kickstarter without a plan.

The way I see it there are (broadly) 2 possibilities:

1. They know exactly which stretch goals they will have, and the funding total at which each of them will be unlocked.

2. They know which stretch goals they have planned, and have a projection for the totals at which each of them will be unlocked. However, they also have a clear figure for how far they can compress those stretch-goals if funding is slower than expected, whilst still remaining in profit.

Unless you work for CMON, you can't really know which of those is true.

I think we can all agree though, that it's not scenario 3

3. CMON design about 5 stretch goals before time, then commission a new one in a blind panic each time something gets unlocked.
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Matthew Taylor
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I don’t think the fact that it is as Sci-Fi is causing it to underperform; I think the problem is that it looks subpar.

When this was first announced I was excited. I love Sci-Fi more than Fantasy, and it’s often easier to get people to play against aliens than zombies. Even at the start though I had to agree that these new aliens are pretty boring. There is no real wow factor to them; they are all pretty bland and boring. You could say that about a lot of the artwork. Look at that front cover; muddied colors, everyone has a sort of blank look - no energy or excitement.

The game has these characters wearing these big awesome power suits. What do they do? They give that character a few more hit points. That is so... bland and boring.

The stretch goals; bland and boring. The survivor packs: bland and boring.

If you don’t like Space Marines, all those characters are bland and boring.
If you only like Space Marines, all the characters are bland and boring.

People have been waiting to be blown away, but so far have been left disappointed. There are a lot of great Kickstarter campaigns on right now. Companies are constantly announcing new products. People only have so much money, and there is very little that sets invader apart from the pack.

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Brant Benoit
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AdmiralCrunch wrote:
I don’t think the fact that it is as Sci-Fi is causing it to underperform; I think the problem is that it looks subpar.

When this was first announced I was excited. I love Sci-Fi more than Fantasy, and it’s often easier to get people to play against aliens than zombies. Even at the start though I had to agree that these new aliens are pretty boring. There is no real wow factor to them; they are all pretty bland and boring. You could say that about a lot of the artwork. Look at that front cover; muddied colors, everyone has a sort of blank look - no energy or excitement.

The game has these characters wearing these big awesome power suits. What do they do? They give that character a few more hit points. That is so... bland and boring.

The stretch goals; bland and boring. The survivor packs: bland and boring.

If you don’t like Space Marines, all those characters are bland and boring.
If you only like Space Marines, all the characters are bland and boring.

People have been waiting to be blown away, but so far have been left disappointed. There are a lot of great Kickstarter campaigns on right now. Companies are constantly announcing new products. People only have so much money, and there is very little that sets invader apart from the pack.



It's an easy pass for me for the same reasons.
I'm not an Adrian Smith fan either, so that makes it even easier.
It would appear that he is becoming pretty much the sole artist for most CMON projects now. And it appears more people enjoyed Eduard Guitons art and found it more suitable for the Zombicide theme.

I feel the entire game, campaign, and everything about it to be just so-so. And it appears it's performing the same.
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Max Maloney
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Notice how everyone is saying it’s foundering (not floundering) in this thread, in spite of it already hitting funding goals most Kickstarter projects can only dream of?

It is comically incorrect to claim it is a failed project. It doesn’t seem to be as popular as BP/GH, but there is a huge gap between those projects and average... much less below average.

But to the OP, I think the answer to this is pretty straightforward: if it is not a financial stretch for you, back it. If you are on the fence and later decide you want it, you will massively regret not getting the KS extras.

If you later decide you don’t want it, it will be easy to move on. There are ALWAYS people who want the KS versions after the fact. Heck, there were two topics on this in the Black Plague forum this week. The lower backer totals make it even more likely to be in demand on the aftermarket. So the risk to get a copy is low.
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Ian Williams
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AdmiralCrunch wrote:
I don’t think the fact that it is as Sci-Fi is causing it to underperform; I think the problem is that it looks subpar.


I'm inclined to agree.

However, if it is Sci-Fi that's the problem, could it be because the Zombicide concept doesn't do anything new in that theme? Black Plague took a generic, overused setting and made it different from the typical dungeon crawler. Invader takes a generic, overused setting and... It's exactly like a bunch of other survive-against-alien-horde that already exist, right down to the artwork.

Or maybe I'm romanticizing Black Plague and how fresh it felt.
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Paul Chamberland
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Ghool wrote:
SaintHax wrote:
Ghool wrote:
They have a really good plan and track record for this type of project.
Like Monoliths Batman, the stretch goals are already planned, and paid for.


Monolith cut the second Red Hood mini holding magnums, 3rd Catwoman (crouched), and (so far) Spoiler. Let's be honest Ghool, without knowledge of what they have prepared for, we have no idea if every Zombicide game had additional stretch goals that never made it in the game. The only track record we know, is they offer a LOT of SGs, and I'd venture to say have set a benchmark for this sort of thing in KS games.


Agreed it's all speculation. But it's merely for discussions sake.
But, do you think multi-million dollar Kickstarters are gone into without at least 90% prepped and accounted for? I really don't think a company trading it's stocks would sell their bread and butter money maker on the fly without a solid plan of attack and marketing in place.

It's normal for corporations to have 100% planned and accounted for and how much they need to make. If they fly by the seat of their pants, investors will stay far, far away.

From the Blood Rage campaign we know that CMON will take retail expansions and add them to the stretch goals if funding is doing way better than planned.

It's likely that CMON, with it's vast experience running Kickstarters, has multiple plans for stretch goals depending on the pace of funding - the main difference being the addition or subtraction of expansions. The expansions could be retail expansions and/or KS exclusive expansions.

An argument can be made that all planned exclusives will show up during the campaign, but we have no evidence for that. It's entirely possible if funding is slow that some exclusives will be skipped and may show up later as retail exclusives or convention exclusives.
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Martin V
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Jim, thanks for starting this thread (and to those that have posted so far).

I posted something similar in another Invader thread, but haven't gotten any feedback up to this point. I'm feeling the same, if perhaps for different reasons.

I discovered Zombicide after BP KS was over, so I picked it up retail and missed on all the KS goodies. I backed GH & Massive Darkness. I come from a D&D RPG background, so those titles really worked for me. My life is busy, so I still have much to paint and don't play near as much as I would like. (but I do love getting my painted minis to the table!)

I've been considering backing this on at the Civilian level, just to get the base game and the KS exclusive goodies. When I saw the $90 add-on today, I began to wonder if it would be better to just pass altogether. Would I be missing out on too much of the game to even bother? If you pick up the Soldier Pledge plus this new add-on, you're at $240 plus shipping. Wow...that quite a bit, especially if I'm not super into it.

Would I really be missing out if I just passed on this and kept my focus on BP & GH? I mean, the rest of the GH KS stuff should be arriving shortly, so the painting queue will be long enough. The BP/GH figs I can use in D&D games, and I don't play Sci-Fi RPGs, so no extra utility there.

I would really like to hear thoughts from others (like you, Jim) who are on the fence, and what factors you are considering when you are thinking of backing or passing. If you ARE backing, what are you considering in your pledge package?
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I was a KS backer for original Zombicide and got quite a bit for my $120 pledge. Became a Zombicide fan ever since (although, admittedly did not KS BP or GH, and waited for retail).

I was pledged at the $150 level for Invader, saw the $90 add-on and canceled my pledge. I think my patience for KS tactics is waning.

As others have pointed out, there are so many options for games these days, and only so much money. Especially on KS. I backed the Street Fighter miniatures game for $280 (oversized prepainted minis) prior to initially backing Invader, so my hesitance to drop more on Invader is likely influenced by this. But, $150 for unpainted minis, unappealing/uninteresting looking aliens, less than a handful of "extra" characters that interest me from a reference angle, and then wanting $90 more for the "limited time only, better act now!" KS shenanigans just rubbed me the wrong way in the end.
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Phillip Martin
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I've backed at the soldier level but am debating dropping it to civilian and adding the add on. I'm also battling dropping it all together as I backed nemesis and the more I think about it, the more I really only feel excited about dark side. If I could just buy dark side with the brood mother (which I think fits the mines better) that would be amazing.
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As long as we are musing.. I'll add rambling.


I originally backed this at civilian level. I found out about the zombicide games really late and this was the 1st one i could back. If i had the choice i would have backed BP, because i like how that looks thematically. I'll get to why i don't get BP later.

But during the campaign i started to notice i really disliked the "zombies" in the game (they are not zombies but pretty generic aliens). I like the big models but the standard workers, not my cup of tea. Added to that, the stretch goal addons weren't doing it for me either. I like the more sci-fi like characters that got added like most of the aliens and some of the humans, most weren't really ticking my box and i absolutely hated "the back to the future" themed ones.

That made me sit down and think, and while discussing my pledge with a co-worker i came to the conclusion, i probably will like the game, but i really dislike the visuals on this game, as it is a miniature game, the visuals are important. So i decided to cancel my pledge completely. Also i dont like the KS addons only for the higher level pledge, it feels like they are playing really hard on the FOMO, i feel their whole campaign is based on that.

Now i hear you all think, but BP is in retail, why don't you get that. The reason for that (in my mind) is pretty simple. Why would i pay exactly the same as the backers, but get less miniatures and so less game, i see no reason to do this, also because a next zombicide game will probably follow anyway and perhaps i'd like those visuals, so why not get the next one, i'd even get all the KS stretchgoals.

i have pretty much the same reason not to buy rising sun, I love the game, but why do you want me to pay the same as a friend who did the KS and did get a shitload of extra minis?

So personally i think the bucket load of "KS exclusives" in CMON games is killing (at least my) motivation to buy their games retail

SO i will definitely keep checking CMON Kickstarters but will probably never buy any CMON games in retail.

sorry for the "diatribe" like post , just had to get it out


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Brigand77 wrote:
Now i hear you all think, but BP is in retail, why don't you get that. The reason for that (in my mind) is pretty simple. Why would i pay exactly the same as the backers, but get less miniatures and so less game, i see no reason to do this, also because a next zombicide game will probably follow anyway and perhaps i'd like those visuals, so why not get the next one, i'd even get all the KS stretchgoals.

Because backers paid a year in advance? Because you’ll most certainly find any CMON game at retail for a hefty discount vs. what backers paid? Because you can order the game today and likely have it this week, rather than wait a year for the next ZC (if they don’t skip a year), PLUS another year while you wait for delivery?
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Still dont understand why the new standalone is considered a turn off because its to expensive. Why not just dont get it and just leave it at the basic pledge? is FOMO (Just learned what that means) so strong with people that they have to have everything or nothing at all? Now if you told me you backed GH and are waiting for that game before backing anything else that would make more sense in my mind.

Anyways, all counted in at the moment, its less expensive then GH and I bet less then Black Plague though I havent counted that one yet.
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Jim P
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If you skipped the big box expansions for Green Horde, you could have pretty high levels of certainty that they would eventually make it to retail, and all you'd be missing would be 1 promo survivor - when you get dozens in the KS

Missing the new big box standalone in Invader is very different. For one thing, the "limited print run" might mean not getting it at all. You certainly won't get the companions (something entirely unique within this campaign), or the additional 10 crossover missions. Missions are always a big deal in Zombicide, because there are so few compared with monsters and heroes.

It's clearly a deliberate move by CMON, but the way they string out the stuff that really catches the attention across multiple pledge levels and add-ons is frustrating. $100 for the game, with the option to get Black Ops later and only miss the one promo astronaut is pretty good. Then it became a case of missing a whole new enemy type (moths?). Now there's essentially a whole new season that you either buy now or never get. $250 or so dollars (before shipping) is a hell of a lot of money.
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