Christopher Jarvina
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As the question says, in the event two Viking leaders are left with two Viking units and one command and one hit is rolled, can a leader command out, leaving the other leader? Or do both commands have to be rolled in order to command the leaders out? Furthermore, in the same scenario, if one fled and one hit is rolled, does one Viking leader die? Or can they both be attached to the last unit?
 
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Niko
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GrantDanasty wrote:
As the question says, in the event two Viking leaders are left with two Viking units and one command and one hit is rolled, can a leader command out, leaving the other leader? Or do both commands have to be rolled in order to command the leaders out? Furthermore, in the same scenario, if one fled and one hit is rolled, does one Viking leader die? Or can they both be attached to the last unit?
Leaders can only retreat with the last unit in the Shire. I.e. two command results (or one command and one flee) are needed.
I'd rule that both leaders can go with that unit but I don't have the rules in front of me to check.

It will be a fairly rare situation though since it requires the English to attack a Shire with two leaders and do well enough to make the Vikings consider retreat.
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Christopher Jarvina
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Ze_German_Guy wrote:
GrantDanasty wrote:
As the question says, in the event two Viking leaders are left with two Viking units and one command and one hit is rolled, can a leader command out, leaving the other leader? Or do both commands have to be rolled in order to command the leaders out? Furthermore, in the same scenario, if one fled and one hit is rolled, does one Viking leader die? Or can they both be attached to the last unit?
Leaders can only retreat with the last unit in the Shire. I.e. two command results (or one command and one flee) are needed.
I'd rule that both leaders can go with that unit but I don't have the rules in front of me to check.

It will be a fairly rare situation though since it requires the English to attack a Shire with two leaders and do well enough to make the Vikings consider retreat.


It actually happened a few days ago. I was the English player and attacked a shire with two Leaders and my opponent ended up with only two norsemen and that's when the question came up.
 
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Eric C

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I thought teo leaders could not be in same province??
 
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Eric Amick
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Ecirelli wrote:
I thought teo leaders could not be in same province??


There's no rule against it.
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GrantDanasty wrote:
As the question says, in the event two Viking leaders are left with two Viking units and one command and one hit is rolled, can a leader command out, leaving the other leader? Or do both commands have to be rolled in order to command the leaders out? Furthermore, in the same scenario, if one fled and one hit is rolled, does one Viking leader die? Or can they both be attached to the last unit?


You can only escape with a leader if the last unit with the leader (on the leader card or in the shire) rolls a command result.

Also, note that all movement and battle must be resolved for one single leader before you can can move and battle with a different leader.
Any units that was moved moved with the first leader cannot move again with the second leader.
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Christopher Jarvina
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Nusferatu wrote:
GrantDanasty wrote:
As the question says, in the event two Viking leaders are left with two Viking units and one command and one hit is rolled, can a leader command out, leaving the other leader? Or do both commands have to be rolled in order to command the leaders out? Furthermore, in the same scenario, if one fled and one hit is rolled, does one Viking leader die? Or can they both be attached to the last unit?


You can only escape with a leader if the last unit with the leader (on the leader card or in the shire) rolls a command result.

Also, note that all movement and battle must be resolved for one single leader before you can can move and battle with a different leader.
Any units that was moved moved with the first leader cannot move again with the second leader.


So are you saying definitively that one leader can command out of the shire, leaving one unit with another leader?
 
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Christopher Jarvina
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Bumping because I never got a satisfactory answer to this question. So far I'm assuming when two leaders with two units are left in the battle, one can command out, leaving the other behind.
 
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Eric Amick
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GrantDanasty wrote:
Bumping because I never got a satisfactory answer to this question. So far I'm assuming when two leaders with two units are left in the battle, one can command out, leaving the other behind.


Why? What part of the rules says one side (i.e., English or Vikings) can have two armies participating in a single battle?
 
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GrantDanasty wrote:
Bumping because I never got a satisfactory answer to this question. So far I'm assuming when two leaders with two units are left in the battle, one can command out, leaving the other behind.


The last unit with a Leader represents the Leader.
A Leader miniature cannot be alone or it's dead, there must always be at least 1 unit with the Leader miniature.
 
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Christopher Jarvina
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ericamick2 wrote:
GrantDanasty wrote:
Bumping because I never got a satisfactory answer to this question. So far I'm assuming when two leaders with two units are left in the battle, one can command out, leaving the other behind.


Why? What part of the rules says one side (i.e., English or Vikings) can have two armies participating in a single battle?
As far as I know, there are no rules that say two leaders can't occupy the same shire at the same time
 
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Christopher Jarvina
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Pikaraph wrote:
GrantDanasty wrote:
Bumping because I never got a satisfactory answer to this question. So far I'm assuming when two leaders with two units are left in the battle, one can command out, leaving the other behind.


The last unit with a Leader represents the Leader.
A Leader miniature cannot be alone or it's dead, there must always be at least 1 unit with the Leader miniature.
So does that mean in order for two leaders in a battle to be alive there have to be at least two units? And since technically if there are two units, that means only one is on each leader card and therefore if only one of them rolls a command, they can take it?
 
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Bob S.
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GrantDanasty wrote:
Pikaraph wrote:
GrantDanasty wrote:
Bumping because I never got a satisfactory answer to this question. So far I'm assuming when two leaders with two units are left in the battle, one can command out, leaving the other behind.


The last unit with a Leader represents the Leader.
A Leader miniature cannot be alone or it's dead, there must always be at least 1 unit with the Leader miniature.
So does that mean in order for two leaders in a battle to be alive there have to be at least two units? And since technically if there are two units, that means only one is on each leader card and therefore if only one of them rolls a command, they can take it?

Yes and Yes. Note rule 5.2 Leader Battles:
Quote:
Units on a Leader’s Card may use a Command result to move out of a Battle (4.4). If the last friendly Unit on a Leader’s Card uses a Command result, the Leader may move with it.
If a Leader has no friendly Units remaining on his Card and in the Shire he is located in, he is defeated and removed from the game.
Each Leader must have a unit on its card to remain in the Shire if the other Leader should take a Command Decision result to exit the Shire along with its last Unit. Otherwise, if Bjorn has no Units on his card and Ivar Commands out with the last Unit on his card (and no other friendly Units remain in the Shire itself), Bjorn is defeated and removed. (Bjorn cannot Command out of the Shire with a Unit not on his card. It must be a part of his Army - and so on his card - for him to leave with the last unit.)
 
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Borz wrote:
GrantDanasty wrote:
Pikaraph wrote:
GrantDanasty wrote:
Bumping because I never got a satisfactory answer to this question. So far I'm assuming when two leaders with two units are left in the battle, one can command out, leaving the other behind.


The last unit with a Leader represents the Leader.
A Leader miniature cannot be alone or it's dead, there must always be at least 1 unit with the Leader miniature.
So does that mean in order for two leaders in a battle to be alive there have to be at least two units? And since technically if there are two units, that means only one is on each leader card and therefore if only one of them rolls a command, they can take it?

Yes and Yes. Note rule 5.2 Leader Battles:
Quote:
Units on a Leader’s Card may use a Command result to move out of a Battle (4.4). If the last friendly Unit on a Leader’s Card uses a Command result, the Leader may move with it.
If a Leader has no friendly Units remaining on his Card and in the Shire he is located in, he is defeated and removed from the game.
Each Leader must have a unit on its card to remain in the Shire if the other Leader should take a Command Decision result to exit the Shire along with its last Unit. Otherwise, if Bjorn has no Units on his card and Ivar Commands out with the last Unit on his card (and no other friendly Units remain in the Shire itself), Bjorn is defeated and removed. (Bjorn cannot Command out of the Shire with a Unit not on his card. It must be a part of his Army - and so on his card - for him to leave with the last unit.)
The problem with your rules quote is that on its own it allows commanding out the leader with any unit; move all but one unit from leader card to Shire, use command decision on last unit on leader card, move leader with it since the section you quote only mentions last unit on card.

Unfortunately the whole idea to have units on leader cards has been overblown from a simplified way to place/move units without rules impact to it reading like the leadercard is almost a sub-area of the Shire.where the leader is...
My personal interpretation of those rules is that one unit can keep any amounts of leaders alive in its Shire and allows any amounts of leaders to move with it if it is the last unit in a fight and uses a command decision, but I fully understand why you read the rules differently.
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Christopher Jarvina
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Borz wrote:
GrantDanasty wrote:
Pikaraph wrote:
GrantDanasty wrote:
Bumping because I never got a satisfactory answer to this question. So far I'm assuming when two leaders with two units are left in the battle, one can command out, leaving the other behind.


The last unit with a Leader represents the Leader.
A Leader miniature cannot be alone or it's dead, there must always be at least 1 unit with the Leader miniature.
So does that mean in order for two leaders in a battle to be alive there have to be at least two units? And since technically if there are two units, that means only one is on each leader card and therefore if only one of them rolls a command, they can take it?

Yes and Yes. Note rule 5.2 Leader Battles:
Quote:
Units on a Leader’s Card may use a Command result to move out of a Battle (4.4). If the last friendly Unit on a Leader’s Card uses a Command result, the Leader may move with it.
If a Leader has no friendly Units remaining on his Card and in the Shire he is located in, he is defeated and removed from the game.
Each Leader must have a unit on its card to remain in the Shire if the other Leader should take a Command Decision result to exit the Shire along with its last Unit. Otherwise, if Bjorn has no Units on his card and Ivar Commands out with the last Unit on his card (and no other friendly Units remain in the Shire itself), Bjorn is defeated and removed. (Bjorn cannot Command out of the Shire with a Unit not on his card. It must be a part of his Army - and so on his card - for him to leave with the last unit.)
I'm still confused. You said yes to my question "So does that mean in order for two leaders in a battle to be alive there have to be at least two units?" And then go on to say Bjorn can still be alive if he has no units on his card but Ivar has one left. So which is it? And who is to say that last unit isn't on Bjorn's card rather than Ivar's? What makes that decision if they both occupy the same shire?
 
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Andrew Jacquot
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thats why were having an issue here haha because we dont know how to interpret it. i usually rule that "last unit on the leader card" implies that each leader must have a unit in the shire that corresponds to it. because if theres two leaders and one unit left, that unit can only be "picked up" and placed on one leader card. there are no rules that state that one army can have two leaders! or else youd be able to attack with One army that has two leaders at any time as long as the two leaders started in the same shire, right?
 
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Bob S.
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GrantDanasty wrote:
Borz wrote:
Each Leader must have a unit on its card to remain in the Shire if the other Leader should take a Command Decision result to exit the Shire along with its last Unit. Otherwise, if Bjorn has no Units on his card and Ivar Commands out with the last Unit on his card (and no other friendly Units remain in the Shire itself), Bjorn is defeated and removed. (Bjorn cannot Command out of the Shire with a Unit not on his card. It must be a part of his Army - and so on his card - for him to leave with the last unit.)
I'm still confused. You said yes to my question "So does that mean in order for two leaders in a battle to be alive there have to be at least two units?" And then go on to say Bjorn can still be alive if he has no units on his card but Ivar has one left. So which is it? And who is to say that last unit isn't on Bjorn's card rather than Ivar's? What makes that decision if they both occupy the same shire?


Yes - for two Leaders to be alive during a battle they each must have at least one unit on their respective cards. In the example I gave, I stated that Bjorn would be defeated and removed in a battle if he was then alone in the shire and did not have a unit on his card (based on your original post about two Leaders in one battle but only one unit between them).

As stated in the rules, a moving Leader can pick up and drop off units between their army card and the shires the Leader moves through. Battles come between moves by a Leader; you can’t move units between a shire and a Leader card during the battle itself. If a battle concludes with no units on Bjorn’s card but some in the shire and no enemy units present AND Bjorn can still move yet, then he can move units from the shire to his card (and keep moving with them). The rules make a distinction between units on a Leader’s card (and so moving with that Leader) and those in a shire (and so not on a Leader’s card).
 
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Christopher Jarvina
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Borz wrote:
GrantDanasty wrote:
Borz wrote:
Each Leader must have a unit on its card to remain in the Shire if the other Leader should take a Command Decision result to exit the Shire along with its last Unit. Otherwise, if Bjorn has no Units on his card and Ivar Commands out with the last Unit on his card (and no other friendly Units remain in the Shire itself), Bjorn is defeated and removed. (Bjorn cannot Command out of the Shire with a Unit not on his card. It must be a part of his Army - and so on his card - for him to leave with the last unit.)
I'm still confused. You said yes to my question "So does that mean in order for two leaders in a battle to be alive there have to be at least two units?" And then go on to say Bjorn can still be alive if he has no units on his card but Ivar has one left. So which is it? And who is to say that last unit isn't on Bjorn's card rather than Ivar's? What makes that decision if they both occupy the same shire?


Yes - for two Leaders to be alive during a battle they each must have at least one unit on their respective cards. In the example I gave, I stated that Bjorn would be defeated and removed in a battle if he was then alone in the shire and did not have a unit on his card (based on your original post about two Leaders in one battle but only one unit between them).

As stated in the rules, a moving Leader can pick up and drop off units between their army card and the shires the Leader moves through. Battles come between moves by a Leader; you can’t move units between a shire and a Leader card during the battle itself. If a battle concludes with no units on Bjorn’s card but some in the shire and no enemy units present AND Bjorn can still move yet, then he can move units from the shire to his card (and keep moving with them). The rules make a distinction between units on a Leader’s card (and so moving with that Leader) and those in a shire (and so not on a Leader’s card).
I suppose I should have been more clear in that the situation I was describing was an English player attacking a Viking-controlled shire in which two Viking leaders inhabit. But I figured it was a given since it's impossible to have two leaders attack a shire at the same time on their active turn. No leaders have moved since it's the English player turn, thus any Viking unit in the shire can belong to either leader at that time.
 
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Bob S.
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GrantDanasty wrote:
I suppose I should have been more clear in that the situation I was describing was an English player attacking a Viking-controlled shire in which two Viking leaders inhabit. But I figured it was a given since it's impossible to have two leaders attack a shire at the same time on their active turn. No leaders have moved since it's the English player turn, thus any Viking unit in the shire can belong to either leader at that time.


(Ah, I wondered about that...)

To present my understanding of the rules, I need to use an example:
- Bjorn & Ivar are relaxing in a shire. Each has 3 units on their respective cards. Also in the shire are a few other Viking units (the remnants of a previous campaign).
- Enter the English (it’s their turn) - Housecarls & Thegns. A battle ensues. It’s vicious, with great losses on both sides, but the Vikings take the brunt of it. At the end of a round, Bjorn has no units on his card (the last one, a Berserker, had been killed), Ivar still has a Norseman, and there are a Berserker and a Norseman still in the shire (not on either Leader’s card). Consider a few outcomes for the next round:
- - (1) Vikings roll well but not enough to stop the English who kill the remaining Vikings. With no Viking units on cards or in the shire otherwise, the Leaders are captured & removed.
- - (2) Vikings roll well enough and they get a Command Decision. It is applied to Ivar’s Norseman who heads to an adjacent friendly occupied shire; Ivar goes with him since he’s on Ivar’s card. The English then kill off the remaining Vikings; Bjorn is captured & removed since he has no units on his card and the shire is empty of Vikings.
- - (3) Vikings roll poorly and get two Command Decisions (1 for a Berserker, 1 for a Norseman) and 1 Norseman flees. So, a Norseman in the shire itself flees; the Norseman on Ivar’s card Command Decisions to that friendly adjacent shire and Ivar goes with (since he’s on his card); Bjorn is stuck since the other Norseman is in the shire, not on his card, and since this is not a Viking move, Bjorn cannot place the Norseman on his card and then Command Decision away with him. The shire Norseman joins the crowd in the neighboring shire and Bjorn is captured & removed.

(In the circumstance of, say, the two Leaders being without units on their cards, the last shire Norseman getting a Command Decision and able to leave: both are now stuck.)

That is my understanding of the rules as written. In these last cases, I would consider that the Leader(s) was separated from that other unit of Norseman who were able to escape. He was not.
 
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Eric Amick
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Borz wrote:
GrantDanasty wrote:
I suppose I should have been more clear in that the situation I was describing was an English player attacking a Viking-controlled shire in which two Viking leaders inhabit. But I figured it was a given since it's impossible to have two leaders attack a shire at the same time on their active turn. No leaders have moved since it's the English player turn, thus any Viking unit in the shire can belong to either leader at that time.


(Ah, I wondered about that...)

To present my understanding of the rules, I need to use an example:
- Bjorn & Ivar are relaxing in a shire. Each has 3 units on their respective cards. Also in the shire are a few other Viking units (the remnants of a previous campaign).
- Enter the English (it’s their turn) - Housecarls & Thegns. A battle ensues. It’s vicious, with great losses on both sides, but the Vikings take the brunt of it. At the end of a round, Bjorn has no units on his card (the last one, a Berserker, had been killed), Ivar still has a Norseman, and there are a Berserker and a Norseman still in the shire (not on either Leader’s card). Consider a few outcomes for the next round:
- - (1) Vikings roll well but not enough to stop the English who kill the remaining Vikings. With no Viking units on cards or in the shire otherwise, the Leaders are captured & removed.
- - (2) Vikings roll well enough and they get a Command Decision. It is applied to Ivar’s Norseman who heads to an adjacent friendly occupied shire; Ivar goes with him since he’s on Ivar’s card. The English then kill off the remaining Vikings; Bjorn is captured & removed since he has no units on his card and the shire is empty of Vikings.
- - (3) Vikings roll poorly and get two Command Decisions (1 for a Berserker, 1 for a Norseman) and 1 Norseman flees. So, a Norseman in the shire itself flees; the Norseman on Ivar’s card Command Decisions to that friendly adjacent shire and Ivar goes with (since he’s on his card); Bjorn is stuck since the other Norseman is in the shire, not on his card, and since this is not a Viking move, Bjorn cannot place the Norseman on his card and then Command Decision away with him. The shire Norseman joins the crowd in the neighboring shire and Bjorn is captured & removed.

(In the circumstance of, say, the two Leaders being without units on their cards, the last shire Norseman getting a Command Decision and able to leave: both are now stuck.)

That is my understanding of the rules as written. In these last cases, I would consider that the Leader(s) was separated from that other unit of Norseman who were able to escape. He was not.


Each side has one army in a battle, consisting of all units on the leader card(s) and all units in the shire. Leaders leave when the last unit of their army leaves by a command roll. The FAQ makes it clear that this last unit can be on the leader card or in the shire. I don't think any leader can leave before the battle is finished.
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Christopher Jarvina
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ericamick2 wrote:
Borz wrote:
GrantDanasty wrote:
I suppose I should have been more clear in that the situation I was describing was an English player attacking a Viking-controlled shire in which two Viking leaders inhabit. But I figured it was a given since it's impossible to have two leaders attack a shire at the same time on their active turn. No leaders have moved since it's the English player turn, thus any Viking unit in the shire can belong to either leader at that time.


(Ah, I wondered about that...)

To present my understanding of the rules, I need to use an example:
- Bjorn & Ivar are relaxing in a shire. Each has 3 units on their respective cards. Also in the shire are a few other Viking units (the remnants of a previous campaign).
- Enter the English (it’s their turn) - Housecarls & Thegns. A battle ensues. It’s vicious, with great losses on both sides, but the Vikings take the brunt of it. At the end of a round, Bjorn has no units on his card (the last one, a Berserker, had been killed), Ivar still has a Norseman, and there are a Berserker and a Norseman still in the shire (not on either Leader’s card). Consider a few outcomes for the next round:
- - (1) Vikings roll well but not enough to stop the English who kill the remaining Vikings. With no Viking units on cards or in the shire otherwise, the Leaders are captured & removed.
- - (2) Vikings roll well enough and they get a Command Decision. It is applied to Ivar’s Norseman who heads to an adjacent friendly occupied shire; Ivar goes with him since he’s on Ivar’s card. The English then kill off the remaining Vikings; Bjorn is captured & removed since he has no units on his card and the shire is empty of Vikings.
- - (3) Vikings roll poorly and get two Command Decisions (1 for a Berserker, 1 for a Norseman) and 1 Norseman flees. So, a Norseman in the shire itself flees; the Norseman on Ivar’s card Command Decisions to that friendly adjacent shire and Ivar goes with (since he’s on his card); Bjorn is stuck since the other Norseman is in the shire, not on his card, and since this is not a Viking move, Bjorn cannot place the Norseman on his card and then Command Decision away with him. The shire Norseman joins the crowd in the neighboring shire and Bjorn is captured & removed.

(In the circumstance of, say, the two Leaders being without units on their cards, the last shire Norseman getting a Command Decision and able to leave: both are now stuck.)

That is my understanding of the rules as written. In these last cases, I would consider that the Leader(s) was separated from that other unit of Norseman who were able to escape. He was not.


Each side has one army in a battle, consisting of all units on the leader card(s) and all units in the shire. Leaders leave when the last unit of their army leaves by a command roll. The FAQ makes it clear that this last unit can be on the leader card or in the shire. I don't think any leader can leave before the battle is finished.
Eric has it right. During a battle, all units on the same side are considered one army, regardless of how they got there. Only during movement phase are they considered separate if they move. There is no difference between a unit that is placed on a shire and a unit who is placed on a leader card in the same shire.

Eric, if your last statement is correct, which I suspect it is, then that means that in a situation where two Viking leaders are in the same battle and they lose that battle, then it is only possible for one leader to escape alive. If there are two Viking units left and one either flees or dies, then one leader is removed from the game. If one rolls a hit and one rolls a command, that command cannot take a Viking leader safely away, and the player would have to forfeit a leader if they want to command out. Only when there is one unit left (obviously therefore killing one leader) then they may utilize a command roll to take a leader safely out of the battle. Do you agree?
 
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Eric Amick
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GrantDanasty wrote:

Eric, if your last statement is correct, which I suspect it is, then that means that in a situation where two Viking leaders are in the same battle and they lose that battle, then it is only possible for one leader to escape alive. If there are two Viking units left and one either flees or dies, then one leader is removed from the game. If one rolls a hit and one rolls a command, that command cannot take a Viking leader safely away, and the player would have to forfeit a leader if they want to command out. Only when there is one unit left (obviously therefore killing one leader) then they may utilize a command roll to take a leader safely out of the battle. Do you agree?


I think you're being too restrictive. If all the remaining units get command rolls at the same time, the leaders should be able to leave; the rule says when the last unit leaves, not when the only unit leaves. The one thing I'm still not sure about is whether one unit present is enough to keep multiple leaders alive.
 
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Christopher Jarvina
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ericamick2 wrote:
GrantDanasty wrote:

Eric, if your last statement is correct, which I suspect it is, then that means that in a situation where two Viking leaders are in the same battle and they lose that battle, then it is only possible for one leader to escape alive. If there are two Viking units left and one either flees or dies, then one leader is removed from the game. If one rolls a hit and one rolls a command, that command cannot take a Viking leader safely away, and the player would have to forfeit a leader if they want to command out. Only when there is one unit left (obviously therefore killing one leader) then they may utilize a command roll to take a leader safely out of the battle. Do you agree?


I think you're being too restrictive. If all the remaining units get command rolls at the same time, the leaders should be able to leave; the rule says when the last unit leaves, not when the only unit leaves. The one thing I'm still not sure about is whether one unit present is enough to keep multiple leaders alive.
Yes, I overlooked that. If two Viking units are left and they both roll commands then the leaders can command out. But I'm in the camp that says there has to be at least one unit for each leader, else that leader dies.
 
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Bob S.
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Ah, thanks for the discussion. This has helped to clarify these portions of the rules. For what it’s worth, I’m with Christopher that there would need to be at least one unit per Leader in the shire for them both to Command out.
 
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Christopher Jarvina
United States
California
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I finally messaged Academy Games about this, and they had this to say:

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