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Athens & Sparta» Forums » Variants

Subject: Economy issues rss

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Chris Farrell
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Played this for the first time since it was new over the weekend - the 1.2 rules are definitely an improvement over 1.0, in that Sparta at least has a chance to win But we still found the economic system pretty wonky.

Basically, the BP allocations are so generous that unless you’ve already lost, you can very rarely actually spend all your BPs. You can basically replace everything every turn and the only restriction is just the build limits of the various cities. This all seems a bit silly. The Spartan made peace the first time just to save a couple hundred elite hoplites. In the game those elite hoplites - plus the best of Corinth and Thebes - can be used, get wiped out, and be rebuilt every single turn.

Has anyone tried any variants to try to make the economy work more sensibly? This was a war to exhaustion for both sides. My brainstorm was something along these lines:

Just increase the costs by one for everything except peltasts: so Peltasts are 1BP, Hoplites 2, Cavalry 3, and Ships 3, with Spartan ships reduced to 2 after Persian Aid.

Then to keep things in-line I think you’d then increase the build limit to 3 times the city value, and limit the players to only one revolt per Olympiad.

Although the economic engine is the thing that’s the most clearly out-of-whack, we are also not totally enamored of the unlimited port-to-port strat moves. We thought an 8 hex limit might be more reasonable (similar to overland strat moves), and possibly not allowing them through an enemy-occupied hex.
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Liam
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Moved from General to Variants.
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Greg Lorrimer
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Just wondering at the move to the variant section.

The post was about the economy in the original game, not a variant. Sure, it calls for 'variants', but really that's more or less about house rules that might work to fix the problems. It's not really a post about variants.

Else all posts about issues and their possible fixes would go in to variants, which they don't and nor would anyone expect them to as houserules and fixes aren't usually variants. Variants are significant changes to gameplay style, loosely speaking since I don't wish to provoke an endless debate about the definition of a variant.
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Russ Williams
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itsastickup wrote:
Just wondering at the move to the variant section.

The post was about the economy in the original game, not a variant. Sure, it calls for 'variants', but really that's more or less about house rules that might work to fix the problems. It's not really a post about variants.

FWIW to me, a house rule clearly is a variant.

Quote:
Else all posts about issues and their possible fixes would go in to variants, which they don't and nor would anyone expect them to as houserules and fixes aren't usually variants.

I would expect "houserules and fixes" to be in the Variants forum.
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Greg Lorrimer
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russ wrote:
itsastickup wrote:
Just wondering at the move to the variant section.

The post was about the economy in the original game, not a variant. Sure, it calls for 'variants', but really that's more or less about house rules that might work to fix the problems. It's not really a post about variants.

FWIW to me, a house rule clearly is a variant.

Quote:
Else all posts about issues and their possible fixes would go in to variants, which they don't and nor would anyone expect them to as houserules and fixes aren't usually variants.

I would expect "houserules and fixes" to be in the Variants forum.


Broaden the definition of anything enough and it'll be what one says it is.

Such as "a variation of the official rules". So now I play lost cities with a deck of standard cards with a fifth suit marked up as acorns and aces in the middle as placeholders, all of which I add to the official rule producing my 'variation' and therefore a variant.

Obviously it's no variant.

In anycase, BGG has its own ideas of things. But here I would suggest the admin saw the word 'variant' and took it too seriously, when the thread is really about the original rules not a 'substantial' variant.
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Chris Farrell
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I was a little surprised too that an over-eager admin wouldn’t have anything better to do than second-guess me on such a minor and ambiguous thing ... I would think that if you were searching for variants this might not be that interesting, since it’s more ideas about the model than a concrete variant suggestion, but if you were looking for general discussion of how the game works this might be relevant and/or interesting.

Regardless, I’m surprised nobody has an opinion one way or the other on this? Plenty of reviewers have said nice things about this game, surely they might have an opinion?
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James Eisert
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I asked them to reset it back to the rules section. Thanks for your passion for our games!

Jim
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Liam
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I’ve looked over this thread.

To me it did and does read as: This game doesn’t play the way I want it to, here are some suggested variants (3).

Put simply it belongs in Variants, in my opinion. Variants is for discussion and suggestion of variants to the official rules. Any variation to the official rules (call it a house rule if you wish) belongs in Variants.

Rules is for help about the official rules.

General is general and should be not about the game rules or suggested variants.

The game started in General, where threads that don’t catch tend to get buried. It was flagged by users’ as ‘Wrong forum’ and I agreed and moved it to Variants.

Moving the thread there was done in good faith so that it would get better responses and in the future other users will be able to find the thread.

Happy to chat via GM if anyone wants to.
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Chris Farrell
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So this is awesome, thanks to intrusive micromanagement on the part of the admins who apparently aren’t busy, we’ve got 7 follow-ups arguing about what subtopic this belongs in for game forum that has had all of 6 threads in the past year.

Does anyone actually play the game? Anyone?
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Greg Lorrimer
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[quote="monkeyhandz"]I’ve looked over this thread.

To me it did and does read as: This game doesn’t play the way I want it to, here are some suggested variants (3).

Put simply it belongs in Variants, in my opinion. Variants is for discussion and suggestion of variants to the official rules. Any variation to the official rules (call it a house rule if you wish) belongs in Variants.

Rules is for help about the official rules.

[/quote]

Well, that's a broad definition that surely does justify moving it to 'variants', but despite the word 'variants' used by the OP, he's really talking about a fix to a bad rule, in my humble opinion. And that's not really looking for a variant but solution-finding to make the game playable. So in my very humble opinion it should perhaps be in 'rules' as the discussion would be partly about the original rule, not just a fix.

What I see in 'variant' forums is usually some kind of significant changes that give significantly different game-play, in my deeply humble opinion.

I think I'll stop there as in my admirable humility has me bowing over so far that my nose is grinding on the floor and I can't see my keyboard.
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